New Oldie

[Owd_Harri]

Hi All, I'm a new oldie, that is I have home brewed before but I'm talking 40+ years ago. I'm retired now so find I have the time and perhaps the inclination to try brewing again.
I haven't started yet, I'm just information gathering as things have changed just a wee bit from my past attempts. I'm finding it very useful to learn what's available in terms of equipment and techniques from old hands and rookies as I will be when I take the plunge.
Well that's me and I shall do a bit more research whilst clearing space in my garage for the soon to be purchased equipment. It's my intention to jump straight in with biab / all grain as my past experience with kits left a lot to be desired but I understand even the kits have improved a lot since I was a lad !

[Jim]

Welcome!

Don't be afraid to ask what might seem daft questions - we all had to start somewhere. As you say, grain brewing can produce beers as good as or better than commercial ones, but kits have come a long way since the 70s and 80s.

[bitter_dave]

Welcome! I can vouch for the fact that kits are probably better than in the past. In recent years I have moved from all grain brewing to making kits, primarily for reasons of time. You can make decent beer from kits if you buy a decent one, don't add tons of sugar, and are careful about fermentation temperatures. Not saying you should try kits again, but just giving my opinion. Anyway, welcome

[Owd_Harri]

Actually I was thinking of starting with a kit or two just as a refresh of the basics and then progress on to all grain. Have you any suggestions of brands as there seems to be a whole load of new ones. When dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was Brewing I think I used Caxtons ? I assume the more you pay for a kit the better it is ? And finally you say not to add tons of sugar would adding a malt extract replace all or some of the sugar ?

[JonB]

I've done the odd Mangrove Jacks kit and was very surprised (in a good way).

I would agree with Dave, fermentation temperature control makes a huge difference and I would recommend this is a priority to sort out. That being said one of the best solutions is still the old school hack of an aquarium heater through the lid of a plastic bucket...

Did a John Bull IPA kit the other year with solid temperature control, but got a strong cooked corn flavour that can only have come from the kit. Would not recommend.

[bitter_dave]

I like the Muntons Yorkshire Bitter kit made with medium dried malt extract and replacing the yeast with something like safale 04. Makes a full bodied, well balanced bitter. It ends up being slightly pricey relative to other kits if you make these mods but it suits me.

The Woodfordes Wherry kit seems to be fairly popular and is often the first kit people make. It has two cans of malt extract and two packs of decent yeast, so you can't really go too wrong with it. Takes a bit of time to reach it's best tho is the consensus.

If you want a hoppy beer kit there are kits that provide dry hops with them these days. There are also lots of reviews of beers on YouTube as well.

[nallum]

There's a lot more to brewing a nice beer than producing fermentable wort. Kits like Muntons are definitely the way to go initially and perhaps stick with if it delivers your expectations, which it will if you can find kits that suit your personal taste preferences and you develop good brewing skills. Truth is, it requires knowledge and experience to produce as good a fermentable wort as you'll get in a good kit. Extracting fermentables (all-grain brewing) yourself is an interesting and rewarding process, but it can be time consuming and a bit like watching 'paint drying' once you've nailed it. The main difference is you'll need to invest much less money and time using kits. Don't overlook that benefit. I don't want to put you off all-grain brewing, I mainly brew all grain, but I buy the occasional kit, because they're great. If you factor in the time and financial costs invested in all-grain wort making, kits are actually much better value for money. I doubt anyone could reliably distinguish an all-grain beer from a comparable recipe fermented from an extract kit. It's all extract at the end of the day. Focus on more important things initially at least. As already mentioned, good temperature control during fermentation is more important. If I could go back in time, with my current knowledge as a home brewer, I'd definitely spend my money very differently. Expensive shiny equipment doesn't make better beer, it just makes an aspect of the brewing process more convenient, if it's fit for purpose. Beware there's no shortage of people out there lining up to take your money in exchange for your new 'exciting lifestyle'. Learning the skills of a brewer is far more important and enjoyable, frankly. A good brewer can make a great beer in a simple bucket. So stick with kits until you can get them to work for you then consider your options, if you decide you want to try all grain.

[guypettigrew]

I doubt anyone could reliably distinguish an all-grain beer from a comparable recipe fermented from an extract kit. It's all extract at the end of the day.

Wow! You might find there's loads of people on here who can tell the difference. Not saying one is better than the other, but the process of concentrating the hopped wort could, quite reasonably, be expected to affect the flavour.

Guy

[nallum]

Yes, Guy, there are loads of people who like to claim to be able to tell the difference. But, I'm pretty confident they can't. Especially when you start making the brews more comparable by applying the same standard procedures downstream from fermentable wort, including pitching the same yeast and following the same fermentation temperature profile, same serving technique and so on. Give it a go. It's quite interesting. It really is just fermentable wort at the end of the day. Don't forget, we're taking about good beer kits here. Wort making definitely ain't the key to brewing a great beer. There'a bit more to it.

[bitter_dave]

I've certainly made kits where I cannot tell it was a kit. Could an AG brewer with decent skills (and more time than me) make a more complex and exceptional beer? Yes, no doubt. But could I tell it was a kit? No, relative to a good number of perfectly decent commercially produced beers, no. Often on online videos when people say things like 'it tastes like a kit' they have put 1 kilo of sugar in, when they would never do this for an AG beer so the comparison is not fair. Not all kits (or processes used to brew them) are equal though.

[Cobnut]

Like Guy, I suspect there’s a few folk in here who would take your challenge on telling the difference between AG and kit beers…I like to think I could tell the difference, but you may be right that proper fermentation control makes the biggest difference.

I’ve made kits…mostly not great beers.

I’ve made beers from extract, hops (boiled in either water or extract+water) & dry yeast…mostly decent beers

I’ve made AG beers with a variety of different hops, malts & yeasts…mostly very good beers, some of which have won me medals in national competitions. Occasionally, I make a less than great beer, but probably due to lazy technique!

I am also a qualified BJCP judge - not that it necessarily makes me better able to distinguish between “kit” and AG, but it does mean I am generally on the look out for faults in beer and mostly able to spot and identify them.

If you’re really confident that I and others cannot tell the difference between your AG beer and a like-for-like kit, why not brew the two batches side by side and send a bottle of each with no distinguishing marks to a few folk and see what they say? Someone will be surprised at the outcome!

[nallum]

I think there's some confusion here. A valid comparison can only be done between two comparable things. In terms of kit vs all grain, you need to control most other factors. Same style of beer, ABV, IBU, SRM, yeast, fermentation profile, etc. And brewer too. A good kit usually provides enough info to guide a comparable all-grain recipe. It's not an 'I can do better with all-grain' opportunity to contrast kit and all-grain possibilities. Of course, with all grain there is much more control over adding some complexity, but complexity itself doesn't make a good beer. We've seen what foolish brews chasing complexity for the sake of complexity has produced. The complexity is usually subtle, because it needs to maintain balance of what is a simple product at the end of the day. At least the most enjoyable/drinkable beers are. You can add subtle complexity to a kit too by steeping speciality grains, adjuncts (including sugar), hops, hop extracts, pepper corns and other spices, etc., etc., and, of course, yeast. Just like with all grain brews really. I wouldn't use a kg of sucrose in a kit, Dave, but invert or glucose puts less metabolic stress on the yeast. But sugar additions should be about improving the beer rather than making 'rocket fuel'. Anyway, I am confident a comparable kit vs all-grain brew treated the same way in all other respects won't be easily distinguishable as 'kit' and 'all grain'. If all other things (the brewer's skill) align, you'll just end up with two cracking beers. In other words, nothing that really justifies spending a lot more money and time making wort yourself. Of course, home brewers can get into all grain for other reasons. But my best free advice (I'm not selling anything) is start with good kits and brew with them until you can make them 'sing'. Again, there's a lot more to brewing a nice beer than fermentable wort. If you can't make a good kit 'sing', spending a lot more money and time on all-grain brewing won't change anything.