Has anyone compared heirloom barley to m o?

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PeeBee
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Re: Has anyone compared heirloom barley to m o?

Post by PeeBee » Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:00 am

The Lovibond "X" range were "Ales" that were amongst those replacing "Porters" as the preferred alcoholic malt drink in the 19th century. They were sold "mild" (unaged) and the last examples of "Ale" in Britain. They were hopped ales, but typically had less hops than beers about then (like porter); about a third or quarter the hop quantity. They (and the X-Ales from many other breweries) were the fore-runners of "Mild Ale". The darkening came later (early 20th century), the strength dropped with WW1, and the stronger XXX and XXXX "Ales" dying out before then (good thing too, unaged OG 1.070+ ales don't appeal to me!).

I've come on a long way with Chevallier barley malt since the Usher's 60/- Pale Ale mentioned near the beginning of this old thread (no longer on DPBC's Web site). I've just casked two "Victorian" Bitters two/three days ago made with Chevallier barley (the only "landrace" selected malting barley we have access to, and the dominant malting barley for Victorian times).

I think Chevallier barley malt has to be mashed carefully and fermented with dextrin adverse yeasts to get the best out of it. And it is superb! But many "contemporary" brewers don't see the point; short 66-67C mashes, fermented with aggressive yeasts, etc., it just comes out like any other malt.

Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... V1bWc/view

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Re: Has anyone compared heirloom barley to m o?

Post by An Ankoù » Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:54 am

f00b4r wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:20 pm
An Ankoù wrote:So what's the verdict on Chevallier, then?
(I personally think it's amazing and quite unlike any other pale ale malt. Yep, I get the honey- to start with- it ages out. Yep, it eats IBUs)
What about the other Heritage malts from Crisp's? I've done a lager (of all things) with Plumage Archer- very good if I do say so myself.
Did another one with Hanà. Ok, but I really haven't got the best out of this malt yet. I think a protein rest and decoction mash are probably in order.
Just to labour the point: Chevallier is amazing. The OP asks if anyone tried substituting it for, eg, MO, but it's not a substitute,l it's completely different. Try doing Pattinson's Lovibond 1864 with it.
There are two significantly different beers, X and XXX, under Lovibond 1864 on Ron’s site. Which one are you referring to?
Good morning.
Neither of those. I'm referring to 1864 XB, which RP categorises as a pale ale and the equivalent of an ordinary bitter. It has an OG of 1053 and three substantial hop charges at 90, 60 and 30 minutes.
The recipe is in his Vintage Beers book.

Good morning PeeBee
Could you clarify what you mean by dextrin adverse and aggressive yeasts. Is this just about attenuation levels are you referring to some other element. Chevallier's not cheap and I certainly want to get the best out of it.
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Re: Has anyone compared heirloom barley to m o?

Post by f00b4r » Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:36 am

Cheers Ankoù , I will have to dig out the book later and take a look.

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Re: Has anyone compared heirloom barley to m o?

Post by JJSH » Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:13 am

1864 XB is a cracking pint; but it's even better brewed with Chevalier.
<JJSH>

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Re: Has anyone compared heirloom barley to m o?

Post by PeeBee » Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:51 am

Ah, the Lovibond 1864 XB in his (RP's) book, not the Web site (no sign of XB there). One of the ones I've just done is Morrell's 1889 Bitter from Edd's now defunct Website ... the Lovibond XB should make a good replacement? Considerably more hops, but the malt should handle that. The Morrell's is just marginally stronger. There's a Lovibond XXB 1864 too about somewhere?

Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... V1bWc/view

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Re: Has anyone compared heirloom barley to m o?

Post by An Ankoù » Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:26 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:51 am
Ah, the Lovibond 1864 XB in his (RP's) book, not the Web site (no sign of XB there). One of the ones I've just done is Morrell's 1889 Bitter from Edd's now defunct Website ... the Lovibond XB should make a good replacement? Considerably more hops, but the malt should handle that. The Morrell's is just marginally stronger. There's a Lovibond XXB 1864 too about somewhere?
I can post you the recipe if you like.

By the way: both the mild recipes X and XXX call for white malt. I suppose that's just something like MO extra pale?
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Re: Has anyone compared heirloom barley to m o?

Post by PeeBee » Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:19 pm

An Ankoù wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:54 am
... Good morning PeeBee
Could you clarify what you mean by dextrin adverse and aggressive yeasts. Is this just about attenuation levels are you referring to some other element. Chevallier's not cheap and I certainly want to get the best out of it.
Aye, it's me referring to "attenuation" in somewhat woollier terms 'cos I reckon "attenuation" figures are being referenced out-of-context and in misleading ways. I'd stick many "old-English" yeast strains in the "dextrin adverse" category, like Wyeast's "Whitbread" strain (#1099), "West Yorkshire Ale" (#1649), "Ringwood" (#1187) and dried yeasts like S-33 and "Windsor". All have "attenuation" % figures in the high 60s.

Combined with mash temperatures, you can get FGs you choose out of Chevallier barley malt (timing gets more critical for fast converting modern malts).

Here's the two "Victorian Bitters" I did recently as examples. The first with nothing special, mashed 80 minutes at 67°C, 30 mins at 69°C:
1880 Simond's Bitter VI.JPG
1880 Simond's Bitter VI.JPG (37.49 KiB) Viewed 75 times
Finished at SG 1.018 (pyknometer, the Tilt gets a bit unreliable for FG). And the second mashed at 62-63°C for 90 mins, then 30 mins at 69°C:
1889 Morrell's Bitter IV.JPG
1889 Morrell's Bitter IV.JPG (38.95 KiB) Viewed 75 times
Finished at SG 1.012 (pyknometer, but this is a more reliable Tilt PRO). Ignore the slightly tardy fermentation and slow "creep" at the end, it was due to a slight error preparing the starters - both #1187, actually both from the same pack.

I can't do that customisation with "modern" malts and yeast.

"Aggressive" yeasts have attenuation figures of about 80%, or more even.

Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... V1bWc/view

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Re: Has anyone compared heirloom barley to m o?

Post by PeeBee » Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:41 pm

An Ankoù wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:26 pm
PeeBee wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:51 am
Ah, the Lovibond 1864 XB in his (RP's) book, not the Web site (no sign of XB there). One of the ones I've just done is Morrell's 1889 Bitter from Edd's now defunct Website ... the Lovibond XB should make a good replacement? Considerably more hops, but the malt should handle that. The Morrell's is just marginally stronger. There's a Lovibond XXB 1864 too about somewhere?
I can post you the recipe if you like.

By the way: both the mild recipes X and XXX call for white malt. I suppose that's just something like MO extra pale?
What, the XXB? I have Ron's book for the XB. Does Lovibond's large amount of hops need plenty of time before it's drinkable?

Durden Park Beer Circle's booklet has "white malt" replacement down as half/half Pale Malt and Lager Malt (or MO extra pale). Also calls it "East India Malt" 'cos it would have been used for the early IPAs. I've no reason to argue with them on this!

Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... V1bWc/view

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