Confused by dry yeast choices again

Share your experiences of using brewing yeast.
clarets7
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Confused by dry yeast choices again

Post by clarets7 » Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:13 pm

Looking for a dry yeast for an ordinary bitter OG 1036 to 1038, amber not pale. Something like the old Ridley's bitter in the 70's, or even the Biggleswade version of Greene King bitter. Not keen on S04, Nottingham doesn't have enough flavour, tried the Mangrove Jacks range but not that impressed (although I may have under pitched the last Liberty Bell brew). I've had some success with 50/50 Windsor/Nottingham, but the last brew with that just refused to clear, and was tasteless (think John Smiths). What do people use for ordinary session beer?

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Re: Confused by dry yeast choices again

Post by bitter_dave » Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:23 pm

Have you tried lallemand London Ale? I tried it on my last beer, which was bit stronger than yours, and I reacon it could work well on an ordinary bitter. In fact, I think that's what I will make next! Mashed fairly low and cold crashed.

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Re: Confused by dry yeast choices again

Post by Rookie » Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:51 pm

I usually use S-33, Muntons, or London ESB.
I'm just here for the beer.

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Re: Confused by dry yeast choices again

Post by Cobnut » Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:06 pm

+1 for S-33

Leaves a nice bit of sweetness due to inability to ferment the longer chain sugars. Literally stops dead.
Fermenting: nowt
Conditioning: nowt
Drinking: Endavour Pale Ale, Store cupboard Stout, Partigyled IDSP (& PP - now drunk), London Porter, De Koninck Belgian Pale Ale, Adnams Broadside Clone (not!), dodgy London Pride clone
Planning: Brut IPA #2, Hazelweiss 2022 edition, Simmonds Bitter, and more!

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Eric
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Re: Confused by dry yeast choices again

Post by Eric » Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:17 pm

More esters and increased flavour can be achieved at higher fermentation temperatures. While not normally using dry yeast, I aim to pitch about 18c and allow yeast activity to increase temperature, then attenuate it if it reaches 23C.
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clarets7
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Re: Confused by dry yeast choices again

Post by clarets7 » Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:49 pm

London ESB - yes, I have used it, completely slipped my mind. Just trawled back through my notes and seems I was quite happy with it. Not tried S-33, will have a go though.
Eric, I have been fermenting cooler than that, 21C max, but I must admit on brewery trips in the past I've noticed the fermenters were quite often at 23C, I was thinking that was just for speed, but of course will affect flavour.
I'll get some London and S-33 and see how we go :)

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Re: Confused by dry yeast choices again

Post by MashBag » Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:15 am

... just refused to clear, and was tasteless...
Can I ask why you are changing/chasing the yeast?

Both of those are not necessarily yeast issues to my mind?

clarets7
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Re: Confused by dry yeast choices again

Post by clarets7 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:41 am

... just refused to clear, and was tasteless...
Can I ask why you are changing/chasing the yeast?

Both of those are not necessarily yeast issues to my mind?
I'm quite happy with the yeasts I use for stronger or hoppy beers that go in bottles, but I am looking for something that will give the character of the beers I used to drink all those years ago. I will give the London ale another go, as I seemed to have liked that at the time - just forgot all about it!

Regarding the cloudy and tasteless brew, that was the second time I brewed that in a couple of months, the first was fine, the second the only difference was that I let it cool naturally overnight in the kettle. I don't think it picked up an infection though, I transferred some to bottles and they cleared in a day - and tasted just like John Smiths!

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Eric
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Re: Confused by dry yeast choices again

Post by Eric » Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:43 am

clarets7 wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:49 pm
......................

Eric, I have been fermenting cooler than that, 21C max, but I must admit on brewery trips in the past I've noticed the fermenters were quite often at 23C, I was thinking that was just for speed, but of course will affect flavour.
.................
21C shouldn't produce a tasteless beer, especially one from a mix that included Windsor. Are you using American beer style water profiles?
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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Re: Confused by dry yeast choices again

Post by clarets7 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:38 am

I went back to using Graham's water calculator a few years ago, for that brew calcium 130, magnesium 10, sulphate 180 and chloride 120. Recipe was very simple, 3.5kg Crisp MO, black malt to give EBC 18, mashed 90 minutes at 66C, boiled 60 minutes with Boadicea and Fuggles for bittering, Fuggles at 10 minutes, flameout and dry hop, fermented out at 20C then up to 21C at the end.
Things that could have gone wrong, mash in was only 64C and it took me ten minutes to realise and get it back up to 66C. After the boil it was left to cool overnight before going into the fermenter. Lastly, which I have just realised, the MO was over a year old, ready crushed from the MM in a sealed 5kg bag. Previous brew with it hadn't had the same issues though.

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Eric
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Re: Confused by dry yeast choices again

Post by Eric » Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:15 pm

There's nothing you've described there that would suggest a poor beer would be the result, although neither might it be expected to provide total perfection. You can ignore the low temperature at the start of the mash, with all MO and a touch of black malt for colour, a near ideal conversion would be complete in within your 90 minutes. I mash for 90 minutes as a rule, but do incorporate a not inconsequential quantity of adjunct without enzymes. My grains are milled at home, but have many times brewed with pre-milled base malts well beyond their best use by dates without problem. In the dim and distant past, my boiled wort was left to cool overnight, and while I don't contemplate brewing again in that fashion, it's more likely such procedures could lead to extra (unwanted) flavours than lack of taste, which leaves me with just one supposition.

A few years ago, when highly hopped beers were establishing popularity in Britain, a paper by Dr Keith Thomas provided evidence that regular drinking such beers numbed the tongue's taste sensors such that subsequent hopped beers would not taste as they should. He also said there was increasing evidence that this effect might not be temporary as had been initially thought. You've not been drinking too many of those hoppy beers you bottled, have you?

It must be said that nothing compares to a well brewed, cared for, cask conditioned beer though a beer engine into a pint glass, especially so for sub 1040 session type beers. Good luck with your project.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

clarets7
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Re: Confused by dry yeast choices again

Post by clarets7 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:09 pm

You've not been drinking too many of those hoppy beers you bottled, have you?
I know exactly what you mean Eric, I do have the odd bottle or two of hop juice now and again :D . But I don't think that is the problem, whenever I do get the chance to try a proper 'old style' cask conditioned beer it is always a revelation, you just can't beat it!

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Re: Confused by dry yeast choices again

Post by MashBag » Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:37 am

I am with Eric. There are not obvious issues, certainly "cooled naturally overnight" isn't it. I have been doing that for ages. (Tbh last night)
And you will know absolutely when you have an infection.

I think one of these is more likely...
a) your taste buds tricking you
b) your memory of the taste is tricking you
c) you can taste something you can't identify immediately and thus replicate (thinking maybe oak)
d) you like the taste of something off the wall (dirty pipes, mature beer). Some people like sours FFS.
e) you are pregnant 😁

Next time you do taste one, get the recipe and we can make it happen from there.

clarets7
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Re: Confused by dry yeast choices again

Post by clarets7 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:46 am

I don't think it is my taste buds tricking me, we should park that brew as I must have made a mistake somewhere. Misremembering? Maybe, but last year I discovered a pub in Suffolk that served Adnams bitter straight from the barrel, and I remarked to my wife that it tasted exactly like how I remembered it nearly 50 years ago. Such a shame that their mini-casks are now mini-kegs :(

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Eric
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Re: Confused by dry yeast choices again

Post by Eric » Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:25 pm

I probably know what you mean about Adnams Bitter, not that I've had it in recent times, but it can have that "je ne sais quoi" that many here will hope for and usually miss. My attempts at replication gave comparatively miserable results, but I have only Graham Wheeler's recipe and also don't have their water or yeast, although I have heard they recently had difficulty with the latter two themselves. Maybe someone from Norfolk might confirm or correct that.

Perhaps you should have a go at brewing the recipe from the third edition of Brew Your Own British Real Ale, and maybe I will once we get cooler weather and my brewery is back together, the recipe is simple enough.

For 23 litres,
3050g Pale
340g white sugar
49g Black Malt

35g Boadicea at start of boil and 15g Goldings 10 minutes from end of boil.

I'll be chilling mine at the end of the boil, to improve clarity of wort into the FV and flavours for the finished beer less muddied by inclusions, more particularly effective in lower strength beers. Also it provides hot water for clean down the equipment and brewery, or the car if you wish.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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