Duff yeast in TC - what now?

[Luther]

Hello,

Bouyed up by reading this forum, I got my first TC underway yesterday, following Dreadskin's recipe posted a couple of months back.

Anyway, nowt happening with my brew this morning so I just checked the yeast packet and... bugger... it's a couple of months out of date. Argh! Have I ruined it already? I'm hoping that if the yeast is old and knackered then it just won't work, rather than trash my lovely cider.

I've moved my FV to the airing cupboard to give it every chance, but if nowt is happening by this evening, I think I'll chuck some new yeast in.

Trouble is, all I've got in is a Saflager S23 (I think) or a Safale 04. Will either of these work OK and if so, which is better? I'm not going to get the chance to pick up any cider or champagne yeast over the next few days.

Any advice received with an enthusiasm bordering on the pathetic.

Cheers

[Garth]

I'd use the S-04, but don't keep it in the airing cupboard, it may develop some nasty flavours at high temperature, S-04 will work fine at 18C, even a bit lower.

[Luther]

Cheers Garth. The heating is on this morning and the airing cupboard is nice and warm, so my old yeast has a couple more hours to get its arse in gear or I'm pronouncing it dead, bringing the FV back downstairs and sticking the S04 in. Thanks!

[DREADSKIN]

stick it in and see if it works. but id agree, take it away from the high heats. good luck!

[Luther]

Thanks - my old yeast has started working by the looks of things. Nice frothiness visible through all the floating bits of bramley and some reasonable if not spectacular bubbliness. Looks like there might be enough life left in the old stuff after all. Will bung some yeast vit in if it looks like it's struggling later. Will leave in the airing cupboard for a bit because it's brass monkeys here and the cupboard is about 22 degrees, so not outrageously hot.

Looking forward to tasting this one, Dreadskin - everyone seems to have good things to say about your recipe!

[Laripu]

Trouble is, all I've got in is a Saflager S23 (I think) or a Safale 04. Will either of these work OK and if so, which is better? I'm not going to get the chance to pick up any cider or champagne yeast over the next few days.

FYI, I've made a TC using Saflager, fermented at around 12°C. It turned out very dry, but pleasant. My wife is from south Germany and says it tastes just like her hometown cider (known there as usually as most, but also as apfelmost or apfelwein)

[Luther]

Day 6 in the TC house...

Me old yeast is doing the business after all. We're down from 1049 to 1008 (that makes it about 5.3% at the moment, I think) and still bubbling nicely. What's the reckoning? Another 7 or 8 points to go, perhaps? The few drips I had off the hydrometer tasted quite promising.

I've got 10 litres of the stuff on the go - will decide on whether to prime with sugar or more apple juice when I taste it at bottling time. If I go with apple juice, how much do I use? A couple of litres in a ten litre batch, maybe?

If I can get the gravity down another 7 points, plus a bit more fermenting in the bottle... it's going to be just over 6.5% or so, innit? That seems like a sensible brew for a first attempt! If it tastes OK, I might go big on the golden syrup next time...

[Laripu]

I've got 10 litres of the stuff on the go - will decide on whether to prime with sugar or more apple juice when I taste it at bottling time. If I go with apple juice, how much do I use? A couple of litres in a ten litre batch, maybe?

If I can get the gravity down another 7 points, plus a bit more fermenting in the bottle... it's going to be just over 6.5% or so, innit? That seems like a sensible brew for a first attempt! If it tastes OK, I might go big on the golden syrup next time...

Golden syrup is not as good a fermentable as honey. Honey provides more flavour, it brings more to the party.

For priming, look at this page. I'm starting from that. Remember that the cider will already have some dissolved CO2 in it. The lower the temp, the more it will have. I assume you would like less CO2 than an American, so let's put it at 1.3 volumes of CO2. Let's say the temp is 22°C, and you've mentinied that the volume is 10 litres. So if you prime with cane sugar, you'd need 18.5 grams for this 10 litre batch. (i.e. most of the carbonation would already be dissolved in the batch.)

Now apple juice: see if you can follow this.
· In US measures, a pound (454.54 grams) of cane sugar raises a US gallon (3.785412 litres) of water to 1.043. Therefore 18.5 grams raises 0.154 litres of water to 1.043. (Since 0.154 L = 3.785412 L · 18.5 g / 454.54 g.)
· Luckily the SG of apple juice is around 1.043 ± a point or two. So if you use 0.154 litres of apple juice, that's about the same as 0.154 litres of water with 18.5 grams of sugar in it. Both will give you a lightly carbonated (by US standards) cider.
· If you are a fizz addict, and want the carbonation of a weizen bier, that would be 4 volumes of CO2, and therefore 122 grams of sugar. Then you could use 1 litre of apple juice. Most of the carbonation in this case would come from the fresh apple juice. But I wouldn't advise this - it would be over-carbonated.

My advice is: Don't use a 2 litres unless you want exploding bottles! Start with no more than 0.2 litres. That should give you a respectable 1.44 volumes of CO2. Then adjust in subsequent batches.

Please try to poke holes in the reasoning, just in case I've made an error. It wouldn't hurt to measure the specific gravity of your raw apple juice to confirm my estimate, too.

[Luther]

Thanks Laripu, I'll have a look at that when I'm sober!

[Laripu]

Thanks Laripu, I'll have a look at that when I'm sober!

That occasionally happens, doesn't it?

[Luther]

Right... er... I think I am having a rare moment of clarity.

Will be bottling tonight.

Thanks for the links, Laripu. I think that suggests 0.15 litres of apple juice = about 18.5g of sugar, for a lightly carbonated drink.

In a 10 litre ale batch, I'd put about 40g of sugar I think in order to get the level of fizz I want. So if I want a similar level of fizz in my TC, I'm looking at about 0.3 litres of apple juice for my 10 litre batch. Is that about right?

I'll think I'll go with the juice rather than sugar - my TC is quite tasty now but I wouldn't want it much drier, so the extra bit of juice should compensate perhaps?

Bollocks, I'm over-thinking this, aren't I? Just bloody sling things into it until it looks about right...

[Laripu]

Will be bottling tonight.

Thanks for the links, Laripu. I think that suggests 0.15 litres of apple juice = about 18.5g of sugar, for a lightly carbonated drink.

In a 10 litre ale batch, I'd put about 40g of sugar I think in order to get the level of fizz I want. So if I want a similar level of fizz in my TC, I'm looking at about 0.3 litres of apple juice for my 10 litre batch. Is that about right?

I'll think I'll go with the juice rather than sugar - my TC is quite tasty now but I wouldn't want it much drier, so the extra bit of juice should compensate perhaps?

Bollocks, I'm over-thinking this, aren't I? Just bloody sling things into it until it looks about right...

I get 3.785412 * 40 / 454.54 = 0.333 L. However, I think I did make an error. I looked up cane sugar and it gives 46 gravity points per pound per US gallon, not 43. So instead of 0.333, I'd use 0.333 * 46/43 or about 0.36 L. Pretty close to what you have, and no need to go crazy about it: anything between 0.3 and 0.4 will be all right. Shoot for the middle.

The juice won't make it any sweeter. It will just ferment completely to make CO2. But it adds a tiny bit of taste compared to sugar,which adds none.

There's no such thing as over-thinking: only correct or incorrect thinking. I think you understand these calculations perfectly.

[Luther]

Thanks again Laripu. 1/3 of a litre it is.

I'm looking forward to tasting this in a few week's time - it tastes very encouraging at the moment. Dreadskin's excellent experimentation looks to have produced a winning recipe from what I can tell so far.

[Laripu]

Thanks again Laripu. 1/3 of a litre it is.

I'm looking forward to tasting this in a few week's time - it tastes very encouraging at the moment. Dreadskin's excellent experimentation looks to have produced a winning recipe from what I can tell so far.

Great! Let me know what it taste like when it's carbonated. Ciders I've made are very dry, but the flavours seem to improve a lot over time.

[DREADSKIN]

Thanks for the complements ladz! the experimentation hasn't ended here yet tho. up next apple juice, bramleys and maybe maple syrip?

as for the golden syrip, i would stick to honey for that lovely aroma and after taste it imparts to the bru.


let us know how it tastes!