Elderflower Champagne - controlling the fizz

[GrafVonJon]

Hi all,

with the clocks going forward I'm starting to think about the next batch of Elderflower Champagne as the season will be here before you know it!

This stuff always turns out massively fizzy (when following traditional recipes) and I'm always worried about storing it.
I'd like to make a bulk lot this time, and wouldn't mind keeping the fizz down a bit for safer storage. Seems to me that the recipes always suggest bottling while there's a fermentation going on.
Is there anything wrong with letting this stuff ferment out to dry and then mix in priming sugar before bottling, just like with ale?

Any recipe mods or other comments on this fabulous brew are appreciated. After all, it was this drink that got me started on the slippery path to homebrewing!

Cheers,
GVJ

[Thirsty Paul]

There's no reason at all (and in fact its probably a lot safer) why you cant ferment it out and than prime when bottling, its a winner all round, better controled fizz and less rubbish in the bottom of your bottle.

[DREADSKIN]

i agree, no reason at all. thats what i did last year and it was very popular. dont trust hugh ferly whatisface!

[GrafVonJon]

Brilliant,

It was Hugh Double-Barreled Whatnot's recipe that I used last year. Will ferment and prime as I do with beer this year.

Out of interest, how much sugar are people using for this stuff (and for what brew length)? Most of the recipes I've seen seem to advocate a lot. Suppose there's no reason to worry if I'm fermenting out to dry, but just wondered.

Also, I have a lot of very sturdy Champagne bottles lying around that I was going to use (better looking than last year's plastic spring water bottles!). Is it easy enough to cork these? I only have a 'normal' wine corker and can't imagine a Champagne cork will fit in that! Don't mind investing in another corker for this job (and some wire cages) as it's a brew I'll do every year I reckon.

Cheers for the advice in advance... I have every faith that the forum will provide it in due course...

GVJ

[GrafVonJon]

While I'm at it...

Don't suppose anyone has a secret trick for preventing the yeast sediment from rising up into the bottle when opened do they?
I never get this problem with bottled-conditioned beers. Wonder why it's so prolific with this stuff. Perhaps it's because i've always bottled it while it's still actively fermenting (thanks again Hugh!).

[Thirsty Paul]

The problem with the yeast rising is probably due to the type of yeast, ale yeasts are designed (bred) to pack down firmly at the bottom of the bottle so won't break up when opened, however with Mr wine yeast being different (it has to convert more sugar (higher %)) and wine being normally bottled totally clear I suspect it doesn’t pack down as well. I'm not sure if it would work but you could try fermenting out to finish and allowing to fully clear, then priming your bottles with a sugar solution and active ale yeast that packs down well, in the hope that it may be a bit harder to dislodge. However I'm not sure if this will work as the high ABV of the wine your bottling may kill of the ale yeast before it can fully prime your bottles and it may be lacking in the nutrients etc it needs to do its job. Hopefully one of the cleverer types will be along in a bit to explain fully why this won't work
The other option is the old store your bottles up side down, freeze the necks and remove the cork and sediment then re-cork trick, seems like a bit of hassle to me though.

[DREADSKIN]

for the champagne corks, most homebru shops sell plastic ones and cages from youngs. these are great and reusable

[potatoes]

There's no reason at all (and in fact its probably a lot safer) why you cant ferment it out and than prime when bottling, its a winner all round, better controled fizz and less rubbish in the bottom of your bottle.

I was thinking along the same lines as you Graf. I went and purchased some champagne yeast instead of using the yeast which occurs in the elderflower.

Thirsty Paul, Two questions. Will this make a dry champagne instead of sweet champagne because all the sugar gets converted to alcohol? How much should I prime?

[GrafVonJon]

I'm also wondering how much to prime. I was going to use the carbonation chart that is somewhere in J J Palmers' 'How to Brew Beer' book, and use the maximum he suggests as I want the final result to be more fizzy than my beers.

so long as it'll store safely, as i noticed a distinct improvement over time (3 weeks was all it lasted!) with last year's batch. Hugh has you drinking it when it's still cloudy and far too sweet and yeasty tasting. I wouldn't want to leave the River Cottage method much longer than that though without worrying about bursting bottles.

regarding dryness, you could possibly try backsweetening it with non-fermentable sweeteners after it's finished. Part of my experiments this year will be to try and find my own optimum level of sweetness for this brew.

I feel copious amounts of note taking and record keeping are in order!

[Thirsty Paul]

Without a doubt this will be quite dry, however "proper" champagne isn't sweet, as grafvonjon says there's no reason why you can't back sweeten it a bit if you want to or try using a yeast that gives a sweater wine, I believe that champagne yeast finishes quite dry (any experts know more ?). As for how much to prime, that will have to be trial and error I would defiantly err on the side of caution though and not go above 2 teaspoons of sugar per pint bottle (or equivalent), I think that it will fizz up more than a beer any way as its got less body (a bit like TC which has a good fizz with one level teaspoon, if you go to 2 teaspoons then you end up with you TC all over the ceiling and not in the bottle).
I've got a pint bottle of Elderflower Champagne that I made last June (fully fermented out then primed with 1 teaspoon of sugar) that I've been saving, planning on opening it towards the end of next week (special occasion) so will update on my findings then.

[GrafVonJon]

Well done, Paul, for making it last all year!

Definitely let us know how you get on when you open it.
Good point about it having less body, thus more fizz. I'll be careful, I promise.

[potatoes]

Thanks for feedback T-P. Instead of putting my champange in the normal of pint bottle with a cap, I am going to use a champagne bottle. I heard that these are better at higher pressure from my LHBS. I have bought some plastic corks and some wire cages for keeping them on. He also told me to store the bottles on thier side rather than upright too. Might be worth a go GrafVonJon.... Thanks

[GrafVonJon]

I'm going to use 1litre tonic water bottles as they are quite beefy plastic so shouldn't buckle under pressure.
Then do 6 glass Champagne bottles to look posh when guests come round

[Thirsty Paul]

Ok, update, I've just cracked open the pint bottle of elderflower Champagne that I fully fermented out then allowed to fully clear and added 1/2 teaspoon of sugar when bottling. On opening it had a slight hiss unfortunatly its pretty flat when poured, however it tastes lovely (13% sweet white wine with plenty of elderflower aroma and a nice smooth finish, 1010 final gravity). So I think this year try at least a full spoon of sugar and possibly 1.5 max per pint bottle. I will update again when I get this years batch on.
cheers

[lockwood1956]

Also, I have a lot of very sturdy Champagne bottles lying around that I was going to use (better looking than last year's plastic spring water bottles!). Is it easy enough to cork these? I only have a 'normal' wine corker and can't imagine a Champagne cork will fit in that! Don't mind investing in another corker for this job (and some wire cages) as it's a brew I'll do every year I reckon.

you can use crown caps on champagne bottles the larger ones (29mm if i remember right)