Lack of flavour

[DarloDave]

My last two brews have been tippers due to a problem with lack of flavour from late hops, both have had 30grams added 10 mins before the end of boil and then 60 at flameout, however when ive gone to drink them a month down the line, they have a pretty much tasteless overall biterness, but no flavour at all. The SNPA clone had 90grams off cascade, I cracked one open expecting that aroma and taste and got nothing. .

Where am I going wrong?!

[flything]

Hop flavour and aroma does deminish over time in all beers, I suspect that as you drink hoppier and hoppier beers your palate becomes increasing used to the strong flavours, with a bit of mellowing it means your perception is that there is almost none there. Maybe

Other than that it could be the yeast you're using, I understand Nottingham tends to leave more flavour than S04.

[DarloDave]

I used s05both times so if anything I expected more hop flavour. Its nothing to do with it diminishing over time either, I sampled one rouhgly every week, and it never had anything.

[Nermal]

I'm a n00b (done only 3 AG brews so far) but have you looked into mineral levels in your liquor?

EDIT: See this forum post

Apparently soft water (ie: low calcium levels) can mean muted hop flavours amongst other things. I do basic adjustment at the moment as I have very soft water - my first all grain I just plonked 1 tsp of gypsum in the boil and the resulting beer tasted great.

My most recent brew has 10 min cascade and ekgs as well as flame out cascade and ekgs - I added 10g of gypsum to the mash and 5g to the boil so I'll let you know how it turns out - I'm using S04 yeast - the same as the last two brews - so it should make for a fair comparison.

I'm hoping for citrusy hoppy goodness so if it's not there I'm going to be dissapointed like you.

[DarloDave]

Ive never had a problem with it before though, its just in the last two brews for some reason

[Nermal]

How fresh were the hops ?

[DarloDave]

Vac packed, unopened from Craftbrewer in both instances!

[Mountain]

Hi mate,

Off the top of my head I think Cascade has a relatively low alpha acid content, so on it's own it might not have had enough 'balls'.

I usually tend to go for 2 hop types in most beers-sometimes 3 types. I often dry hop in secondary too.

I like hoppy ales so tend to go for a high IBU. I will combine a high Alpha for 60mins and an aroma for 30mins. I tend to feel the high alpha helps with the aroma hop flavour....

I sometimes brew with mineral water if I want to spend an extra 3 or 4 quid. Why don't you pop down to Tescos and buy 4 of those 5litre mineral waters and try a batch, see if it makes a difference. I think they are 93p per 5litres. There is also Buxton mineral water half price. 1.5l x 6.

You could then see if there is any difference due to water quality and would regardless end up with a good beer. If there was a significant difference, you could then think about adjusting the water. Just an idea!

PSI made 25L of IPA from the Burton water and it was really good-one of the best.

[mysterio]

I'm in the same boat, Borodave. I've moaned about it on here loads of times. Hop flavour and aroma will be great for maybe a week then fall off a cliff. After a month i'll be left with a sweet malty beverage with not a lot of flavour. Most of my brewing now is wheat beers, lagers, bitters etc which rely on yeast character or malts. Really frustrating when you've shelled out for lots of nice hops.

Whats your water like in Darlington? Do you know what kind of mash PH you're getting?

Suspecting it might be water in my case i've started upping the bicarbonates slightly, and splitting gypsum/cacl2 treatment between the mash and boil (before I did it all in the boil).

[jubby]

Borodave, it's strange that you have exactly the same problem as me. I brewed my Bishops Farewell clone No.5 on the 5th August and it has absolutely no hop aroma whatsoever. The previous four attempts have been very good, I usually get masses of aroma just as the beer clears which slowly drops off. I did two things differently this time. Firstly I used pellet Cascade from our German friends......errrrrrrm Can*irect (I brought 1/2 kilo as they were a bargain ) Secondly I made an extra hop addition, as i read somewhere that Cascade are good at 5 min boil. My normal hop schedule is 35g at 15 min and 35g at boiler off (in addition to Challenger for bittering) This time I added 37g at 15, 37g at 5 and 45g at boiler off.

There are two possible reasons in my case.
1. The hops were crap
2. The extra addition at 5 min somehow has a canceling effect on the aroma

I know what i think the cause was; and they're going in the blummin bin (unless somebody wants just under 400g of dodgy Cascade. I will post them at cost)


I have now tried dry hopping the corny with 5 grams of flower Cascade in an attempt to salvage the brew. It's not bad beer, just bland so I shan't tip it, I will force myself to drink the bloody lot. Let that be a lesson to me!!

[DarloDave]

Thanks for the replies, I dont think it is a water problem, I've made really hoppy pale ales before with the same water and they have been absolutely spot on. Theres ONE thing I did different with these two, and that is they both had Magnum I had bought from Grimsby homebrew. Could this be affecting it?

I've just moved house so may still look into my water and get that sorted so I can at least rule that out.

[mysterio]

Remember water supplies can be variable and can be from completely different sources at different times in the year.

Magnum is the bittering hop so if it was somehow cancelling out aroma that would be extremely bizarre.

'Tasteless overall bitterness' kind of describes what i've been experiencing with my very soft water when brewing hoppy beers.

Have you tested the alkalinity and do you know levels of calcium etc?

[DarloDave]

I dont know anything about alkalinity and calcium im afraid, so I dont know if thats affecting anything. That all seemed to confusing so I never looked into it. Is there an easy explanation how to sort this out anywhere?

Is it possible that some dodgy Magnum is ruining the flavour of everything else?

[Mountain]

So, we can probably assume the water isn't a major problem if you've had decent results before.

Oh, so you'd used Magnum and cascade?

Well, the Magnum have a high alpha and you are getting the bitterness, so sounds like the Cascade may the problem!

Am I getting this right?

30g 10mins from the end of the boil? Then 60g when taken off the heat?
Is this both hops?

Maybe just a longer boil for the cascade might work better, or half at 30mins and half 15 mins before the end of the boil.

If the hops were a little old they'll need longer. I think they'd need to be very fresh for your boiling schedule to get the most out from them.

[flything]

The only other thing I can add is that I bought some more cascades recently, even though I had some in the freezer, and although my Styrians and Challengers of about the same age still had a good aroma, when I compared the new and old Cascades I decided to not use the older ones as there was almost no aroma, maybe they don't keep as well?