Stuck - which stuff-up is most likely to stop fermentation?

[dhalse001]

Hi, I'm a noob, and haven't yet tasted a drop. That said, I'm having a crack at all-grain and have two beers fermenting now . Apologies if this is answered elsewhere - feel free to point me to the link(s)...

1. Irish Red
2. Dopplebock.

Both started OG about 1.056. Irish Red had an ale yeast WLP004 (a vial - from Hop and Grape) and I used a lager yeast for the Dopplebock (again a vial from H&G WLP830). But are suffering the same problem, so I'll choose the Dopplebock to discuss:

The mash temperature on the Dopplebock was 60 degrees celcius (140 fahrenheit ) - because I stuffed it up. Does that mean I'm likely to have more higher chain (unfermentable) sugars (and perhaps why the OG was lower than anticipated)? OG 1.056. Sanitation was no-rinse at the recommended dilution. Aeration: hose splashes wort around as it enters primary fermenter. Lager yeast vial pitched at 20 degrees celcius (wet yeast, expiry March 2010, net volume 35mls). Temperature fluctuating between 15 to 22 degrees . Fermentation started after 3 days . Two weeks has gone by and last night I transferred it to a secondary fermenter. I measured the gravity and it's about 1.032 . So two weeks, and by my calcs, 2.4% alcohol.

A day later and it's almost not bubbling at all . Now please don't laugh, hard that is, but I thought I should rouse the yeast, so I grabbed the whole carboy (23L) and turned it upside down and shook it while holding in the bung and brew was pi**ing out of the airlock everywhere . It's bubbling a little, but nothing like it was a week ago.

I'm keeing the whole brew at about 15 degrees (or slightly less) as it is a lager yeast and I don't want higher order alcohols (esters).

I'm guessing that by my 'shake method' I'm running the risk of oxidation from the air in the top (deadspace) of the carboy.
I'm guessing that in future brews I really need to pitch a propogated yeast of volume 1L and that this is my real problem here.
I'm guessing that I should aerate my wort for 2 hours using a fish-tank pump and stone (but this is less of the problem) as not many people bother and they have successful brews.
I'm guessing that you're gonna tell me to pitch another vial of yeast (H&G doesn't open again till 4th of Jan).

I'm hoping I can just sit it out with this lager yeast and it'll just keep on working till I get the desired result???
I'm not holding my breath, but so far the beer tastes good (albeit sweet - as expected at this gravity) and my only realy problem is the low attenuation!!!

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks,
Dave.

[sib67]

You should make a starter from those vials a few days before pitching.

[prolix]

just a couple of checks. you used a hydrometer to test the gravities at the start and the SG as you went along at 20c or did you use a refractomer, if using a refractometer they don't work after fermentation starts.

The irish red had no problems then?

If you have any yeast at all I would suggest that, or put out an all points bullitin to see if anyone is local to you who could sort you out with one

[GeordieBrewer]

Hi, I'm a noob, and haven't yet tasted a drop. That said, I'm having a crack at all-grain and have two beers fermenting now . Apologies if this is answered elsewhere - feel free to point me to the link(s)...

1. Irish Red
2. Dopplebock.

Both started OG about 1.056. Irish Red had an ale yeast WLP004 (a vial - from Hop and Grape) and I used a lager yeast for the Dopplebock (again a vial from H&G WLP830). But are suffering the same problem, so I'll choose the Dopplebock to discuss:

The mash temperature on the Dopplebock was 60 degrees celcius (140 fahrenheit ) - because I stuffed it up. Does that mean I'm likely to have more higher chain (unfermentable) sugars (and perhaps why the OG was lower than anticipated)? You're more likely to get fermentables at a lower temperature, and probably a drier beer, with a low finishing gravity OG 1.056. Sanitation was no-rinse at the recommended dilution. Aeration: hose splashes wort around as it enters primary fermenter. Lager yeast vial pitched at 20 degrees celcius (wet yeast, expiry March 2010, net volume 35mls). Temperature fluctuating between 15 to 22 degrees . This seems very high for a lager yeast - think it should be optimum around 12C Fermentation started after 3 days . Two weeks has gone by and last night I transferred it to a secondary fermenter. I measured the gravity and it's about 1.032 . So two weeks, and by my calcs, 2.4% alcohol.

A day later and it's almost not bubbling at all . Now please don't laugh, hard that is, but I thought I should rouse the yeast, so I grabbed the whole carboy (23L) and turned it upside down and shook it while holding in the bung and brew was pi**ing out of the airlock everywhere . It's bubbling a little, but nothing like it was a week ago. Unfortunately, does sound like a stuck fermentation

I'm keeing the whole brew at about 15 degrees (or slightly less) as it is a lager yeast and I don't want higher order alcohols (esters).

I'm guessing that by my 'shake method' I'm running the risk of oxidation from the air in the top (deadspace) of the carboy. Hopefully there will be a layer of C02 sitting on the top as the air is dissipated (I think CO2 is heavier
I'm guessing that in future brews I really need to pitch a propogated yeast of volume 1L and that this is my real problem here.
I'm guessing that I should aerate my wort for 2 hours using a fish-tank pump and stone (but this is less of the problem) as not many people bother and they have successful brews.
I'm guessing that you're gonna tell me to pitch another vial of yeast (H&G doesn't open again till 4th of Jan). at 1.032 would definately reccomend re-pitching - not sure with what though - SO4 is my yeast of choice, but wouldn't suit the type of brew you're doing -

I'm hoping I can just sit it out with this lager yeast and it'll just keep on working till I get the desired result???
I'm not holding my breath, but so far the beer tastes good (albeit sweet - as expected at this gravity) and my only realy problem is the low attenuation!!!


Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks,
Dave.

Hi, Dave.

I've added some comments in blue, above, hope they help... Good luck - hope it works out ok in the end!

Martin

[dhalse001]

Thanks all.

The Irish Red is similar in that it is stuck on about 1.022. So I'm guessing again either lack of aeration or lack of yeast pitched is the problem.

I used a hydrometer - not a refractor, so hopefully on track there.

I have my fingers crossed about the shake method in that I too hope all air was dispelled earlier through bubbling. It's not really a method that I want to have to apply in future!

Sounds like I need to now add some more yeast - I'll figure out a plan... and let you know how it goes...

Regards,
Dave.

[coatesg]

You haven't said how long the dopplebock has been in the fermenter, but 60C will give a lot of short chain fermentables. Assuming you got full conversion, then you'd be likely to get a lower efficiency if your sparge was maybe too quick, incomplete or suffered from something like channelling in the sparge - but you don't say what your recipe was so hard to see how badly it went! (OG of a dopplebock should be 1070-odd upwards).

Fermenting at low temps does take a while to complete too - though it sounds like you may have underpitched if there was no starter. For a 1056 beer at low temperature ferment, I would make a big starter - probably a gallon starter wouldn't be overdoing it! Maybe to get it going, you'd be best getting a starter going first so it's fermenting well and then pitch the lot into the fermenter to get it going again. You could possibly use a dried lager yeast to finish it off?

Otherwise, pitching enough yeast, aerating well enough and rousing when necessary are fairly important for not having a stuck ferment.

[dhalse001]

Hi,

Yes - I was expecting an OG of a lot more than 1.056.

I use ProMash software and I order my grain from Barley Bottom. However there is no information on the grain that gives the 'potential', which probably depends on the Maltster, so I couldn't tell really what OG I should get (these two brews, Irish Red and Dopplebock are my first ever AG brews, infact my first ever brews!).

Sparge...I'm aware I need a long sparge (1 to 1.5 hours if possible?). I achieved somewhere between 30mins to 45 mins... why?... because I reached pre-boil volume... why, was I sparging too fast?...No... haha, prepare yourself... it seemed like a lot of grain, so ino rder to cover it all in the mash tun (50L stainless keg), I just kept adding water, but could never add enough water to cover the grain.

After adding 19L to the mash tun I realised that the whole grain-bed floats!!! and I never would have covered it without stirring...haha. Genius

I've now convinced myself it is either lack of aeration and lack of pitching Active yeast of an appropriate Volume. Probably more the yeast issue than aeration, but that's a guess. So for these two brews I'll try and add a dried yeast this week and hope I don't contaminate each brew. But worth the risk as I don't want sweet 2.5% alcohol beer.

The dopplebock recipe is from DaveMillers Homebrewing Guide. It says OG 1.073 to 1.077,35 IBU, Decoction (which I've ignored and gone single infusion), continental lager yeast, Terminal gravity 1.015 to 1.020. Interestingly, it also says, and I must admit I don't fully understand: "Like other strong beers, doppelbock can be difficult to brew. If you cannot collect a considerable excess of wort (say 7 gallons for a 5 gallon batch) and boil it down in a reasonable length of time, you may have to resort to pale malt extract to boost the gravity of the wort [ ]. This is not usually necessary with strong ales, because most of their excess gravity is contirbuted by sugar".


Thanks,
Dave.

[dhalse001]

It's me. I'm back again, and more relaxed, as I'm having a Fullers 1845, and to me that's currently the best that money can buy.

The Dopplebock is still got that slow bubble. So today I took an SG reading and it was 1.024 I haven't been able to sort out yeast yet to restart everything as H&G is closed or and I was reluctant to put a dry and different yeast in it (I was hoping to get a good beer with a recipe I can repeat..). I think I will need to buy a yeast to get the Irish Red 'unstuck', but the Dopplebock which has a Lager yeast seems just to be a slow b*tch. How slow?:

Remember I'm keeping it between 10 to say 14 degrees (fluctuating daily between these two depending on my cupboard temp):

Sun 13 Dec 1.056 OG
Sun 27 Dec 1.032
Friday 1 Jan 1.024
3.2%

For anyone good at math (or is it matrick for you old folk? at least I heard my old man use that term once), the fermentation, which is still going, has taken about 3 weeks so far to only get to 1.024. Being a lager yeast I'm going to leave it for another two weeks and hope it gets above 4%. If it does - then it will meet it's maker. If it doesn't, then I'll see how desperate I am and consider my options.

Dave.

[coatesg]

However there is no information on the grain that gives the 'potential', which probably depends on the Maltster, so I couldn't tell really what OG I should get (these two brews, Irish Red and Dopplebock are my first ever AG brews, infact my first ever brews!).

I'd recommend reading up on how to work out expected OGs - the guide in the HInts and Tips section is fairly good: linky. Though, if you're using promash, it should do it for you as long as you have the right finishing volume (after boil), and the right efficiency (70% is a safe starting point until you work out what your system gives you).

After adding 19L to the mash tun I realised that the whole grain-bed floats!!! and I never would have covered it without stirring...haha. Genius

Ah - yup... generally I'd use about 3 litres of liquor per kilo of malt, but it can be anything between about 2.5 and 4 really. Stir it in as you go and make sure there's no dough balls lurking about A sparge of about 30-40 min is about normal - 1-1.5 hours is very slow! Alternatively you could try a batch sparge (loads of details on the forums).

The dopplebock recipe is from DaveMillers Homebrewing Guide. <snip> If you cannot collect a considerable excess of wort (say 7 gallons for a 5 gallon batch) and boil it down in a reasonable length of time, you may have to resort to pale malt extract to boost the gravity of the wort.

Ah - so what it's saying, is that you need to get enough total sugar out of the grain in the sparge ( which should be fine) but if you fail, you can add dry malt extract to the boil to get the required gravity. But, you could just use more grain and get there that way... dopplebocks is a fairly advanced style - the decoction method is tricky, not absolutely required, but you get better malt character, but the hardest thing is the ferment getting enough attenuation at low temperature. If it's still dropping, I'd let it carry on - though I'd agree, the main issue is probably not enough yeast.

[coatesg]

The dopplebock recipe is from DaveMillers Homebrewing Guide.

Ah! Is Dave Miller's a US book? In which case they will be US gallons rather than imperial gallons - moving from imperial to US with the same efficiency (eg boiling longer) you would have had ~1067 at 19 odd litres which is much better.

[dhalse001]

Hi Graeme,

Thanks for the link - I will read it.

Ok - 3L/Kg, so my large mash water was not make or break. That's good to know.

It was definitely a US book, but I am aware that the US Gallon is less than the UK one - 3.785L vs 4.54L. But I can't remember whether I made an adjustment. Let me have a look and I'll post back soon.

Thanks,
Dave.

[dhalse001]

I went over the recipe again with a fine tooth comb.

Looks like I was short on 1kg of grain . Everything else seems ok - the conversion from US Gals and lbs to kgs all seem fine. Mind you, dropping a whole kg of malt is a reasonably big f**kup to make.

A week ago I put a Safale S04 into the secondary. Today the FG was 1.020. So being 1.022 a week ago, the S04 has not managed to eat up many more sugars.

Oh well, it's in the keg now and I'll drum up some mates to come and finish it off so I can try again. I like a good dopple bock, and I wouldn't say my first attempt has been successful, but won't be my last attempt

Regards,
Dave.

[dhalse001]

I recently had another balls up.

The OG was fine, but just didn't seem to ferment much.

I think what happened is... I tried a step infusion, but miscalculated the water temp I needed to raise the mash properly.

Hence I probably only got to 60C and I think little conversion, meaning little sugar for the yeast to ferment. That's my best guess anyway.

Dave.