Secondary fermentation - vessels

[flything]

I tend to leave the hops in for 3-5 days, then fish them out. Generally I use a bag, but I have done just what you have suggested and put some mesh around the syphon, it worked ok too.

I don't think there is a right or wrong way, I just like to put them in before fermentation has finished in order that there is the opportunity for the yeast to take in any oxygen I've introduced, but not so soon that the aroma is driven off by the CO2 escaping (or while there is still a yeast head sitting on the beer) at least that's the theory.

I'll stick the Goose Island recipe in the the recipe section when I get 5 mins tomorrow evening, it's not exact (I used Horizon for bittering instead of the Styrians which the brewery use), it's down to 1.024 tonight, probably will dry hop it tomorrow evening, but I think it's going to be a good brew.

[staplefordbill]

I use a Better Bottle for conditioning beer if I'm going to bottle it (I don't bother if I'm barrelling). I let it condition for a week or two then syphon to my bottling bucket.

I started doing this to help yeast settle out when I was brewing kits, but am I wasting my time? I.e. is it OK to leave the beer in the primary fermenter for 3 weeks ish, at room temperature, or could the yeast start autolysing? I don't know whether the fact I do AG instead now makes a difference, although I have read that AG tends to clear faster.

Never had any problems though, with oxidation or anything else. I use an auto-syphon and it works well.

[gnorwebthgimi]

Staplefordbill

I think that if you are bottling then leaving as much yeast behind as possible is important to reduce bottle sediment. Therefore, transferring to the better bottle is a good idea.

It does depend on how well the yeast flocculates and how long you leave it on the primary as well as how you carbonate the bottles as to whether you are wasting your time.

Aside from what has already been mentioned, if you add bulk priming sugar to the primary before bottling I think it would make the process more tricky.

[trucker5774]

The secondary FV for clearing/settling yeast has been discussed many times with no conclusive answer other than preference. If you have an amount of yeast in suspension (but slowly settling) and you then rack to another (secondary) vessel, the yeast which has already settled to the bottom of the primary FV will stay there (and would have done with the beer over it) The semi clear beer which was clearing from the top (that's why we have top tap KKs) has now been mixed up again and is still the same volume of beer and yeast. It now has to start the settling process again, so why not just leave it where it was in the primary. This all seems common sense to me. If I'm missing something and the already settled yeast has some effect, could someone explain it once and for all please.

When I have racked to a secondary and stored the beer for a couple of weeks, the amount of sediment has been so small that I could hardly see it until the beer was bottled and I was cleaning the secondary FV. Surely this tiny amount would have just joined the already settled yeast at the bottom of the primary FV...........but sooner?

I often barrel my beer before primary fermentation has finished now. When I leave it to ferment out I always bulk prime with a sugar solution in the primary FV. I have found this a very effective way to prime and have never disturbed any sediment worthy of note. Try it!

[Fallen]

the yeast which has already settled to the bottom of the primary FV will stay there (and would have done with the beer over it)

One of the reasons (but not the main one) that I started racking beer from a primary into a secondary vessel was the risk of autolysis. By taking the beer off the main yeast cake and racking to a secondary vessel, I thought I could take this variable out of the equation.

Is this just being paranoid? Over what timescale does autolysis become an issue? Is it dependent on yeast strain?

[Fallen]

Well, I found an extensive discussion on autolysis on a different forum (although I'm sure I could have found similar info here). Wyeast advice is that the beer can sit in the primary for up to 2 weeks after primary fermentation has finished before autolysis becomes an issue at all.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/autolys ... ndex5.html

Extract from this thread:

I just got a response from Greg D at Wyeast.

Here was my original email:
Quote:
I am wondering if you could give some general information on yeast
autolysis as it pertains to the average homebrewer. We are having a
general discussion on the topic at the forum I frequent
(homebrewtalk.com).

My biggest question is if you pitch at correct rates by either
activating a newer package or making a starter, when does autolysis
become a problem? Is it a bogeyman for the average homebrewer?

I have started to not use a secondary vessel for most of my brews per
Jamil Zainasheff. I have left a beer in the primary on the yeast cake
for a month with no problems. I've also left a cider in a primary for 4
months. Is autolysis more likely to happen with stressed yeast or
certain strains? Or, is it just a time factor.

Finally, is autolysis something homebrewers need to worry about in the
bottle? Although I have not done it myself, I know homebrewers who have
aged beer for at least a year in the bottle with no perceived notes of
autolysis.
Here is his response
Quote:
Hi Ed,

Thank you for the email. Sorry to take so long in getting back to you.
I received a similar question at the same time as yours (I assume in
regards to the same discussion), so this email will be copied to another
brewer.

Eukaryotic apoptosis (programmed cell death) is still a very active
field of research mostly within animal systems. The current research
continues to shed light on the function of yeast aging, senescence, and
autolysis.

That being said, yeast autolysis has long been studied by the brewing
industry because of it's detrimental affects on the flavor and
appearance of beer. Autolysis is caused by the action of intracellular
hydrolytic enzymes including proteinases and glucanases. Factors
including , available food source (conditions of starvation), yeast
health (stressed or low viability) temperature (higher), alcohol
concentration (higher), osmotic pressure (higher), and strain selection
all contribute to the onset of autolysis. However for most beers, these
conditions are fairly standard and you should expect similar levels of
autolysis. Therefore, cell density (amount of yeast in beer able to
autolyze) and time become the most important factors in controlling or
minimizing autolysis.

Generally, good yeast handling and fermentation practices eliminate any
problems associated with autolysis. However, as time (yeast in contact
with beer) increases, autolysis will set in. The rate will of autolysis
will depend on the above mentioned factors (temperature, alcohol
concentration, etc.) but in most situations, finished beer can sit in
the primary for a couple of weeks before it becomes detectable. An
increase in pH indicates autolysis is occurring.

Autolysis is generally not a concern with bottle conditioning because
the cell density is at a very low level (5-10E 5 cells per ml. versus
30-100E6 in the fermenter).

I hope that this helps.

Cheers,

Greg

[Kev888]

Just going back to the OP in case its of interest: I ferment in a loosely covered bucket initially and then often rack to KKs after a few days to a week - the kks protect the beer better once the vigour has died down and its nice to take the beer off the initial crudd given that I like to let it settle in there for a few weeks. BUT Co2 production usually continues (if slowly) once in the KK and when I tried just using the normal cap I believed (rightly or wrongly) that allowing it to pressurise before fermentation had really finished was causing a shift in taste.

Now I regularly release the pressure in the KKs until any obvious Co2 production ceases, and so essentially they're used as an FV not a PB at this stage. Subjective taste aside, it makes sure the pressure and carbonation can be applied in a more certain and controlled manner later, through priming or force carbonation, so its worth it just for that in my view.

I could get air locks for the KKs to save releasing pressure manually, but I'm only using them because they're free now I have a few cornies. I'm thinking of getting some betterbottles to replace my KKs in this roll due to their more impermiable nature. I may even try storing the beer in them unpressurised for quite some time, to reduce cornie costs, but I need to read up about conditioning before I decide if its worth going to cornies direct from the FV stage.

And all without terms like primary or secondary

Cheers
kev

[gnorwebthgimi]

It would be interesting to know at what point yeast density actually dropped below a level you could no longer notice any autolysis. I guess there are too many other factors in play to call it.

I was worried that I was taking over too much yeast into the barrel so I tried racking to a secondary vessel to allow a second sediment to form, which didn't make much difference hence I'm not a fan of separating the secondary fermentation stage.

A little bit of autolysis will increase acidity, which is generally normal, but significant autolysis is allowing stuff to rot in the bottom of your fermenter.

I think no more than two weeks in a primary is a good guide to follow, even then I understand people have stretched this.

[Wolfy]

Unless you do something extraordinary - in home brew situations - I think autolysis is mostly a myth and not a good reason to rack to a secondary fermenter. Early racking to secondary may actually do more harm than good, since secondary conditioning is all about yeast cleaning up after themselves, the more yeast mass there is the better and quicker they will do the job. So unless you have (in the past) and do get noticeable autolysis-type flavours/aromas in your beer, leave the yeast do their thing in the primary - unless there are other good reasons to rack to secondary (dry hopping, adding fruit/adjuncts, lagering) simply don't bother.

In a commercial situation with massive amounts of yeast, pressure, temperature etc, autolysis would be an issue, however in a normal home-brew situation, I'm not sure it's worth worrying about. If you were to leave your beer in primary for more than a couple of months, keep it at high temps or have the wrong pH, it might be worth worrying about, but those are not 'normal' home-brew situations.