Lager Mashing

[Froggit]

Yes i know there is no definative answer to my question but what is the best method of mashing for Lager.

Im doing another lager brew next week and the more i research the more conflicting answers i seem to get.

Which would be the best method, it doesnt have to be the easiest, when i do something i like to do it until im able to do it well, decoction seems to be the traditional lager method (and would suit my setup) but i read everywhere that it isnt nescessary with modern grains

Also Mashout, ive been unable to find much information regarding mashout, yes its talked about often but not how its achieved, im using the fly method of sparging so is it best to add hotter water raising the temp towards the end of lautering or best to cease lautering raise the temperature and let mash for 10 minutes then finish the job, my batches upto press ive always lautered until my OG had dropped to around 1.008 then stopped, i suppose with the second option i would have to be more strict with water and basically run to Brewmates figures!

Im just looking for the best system to make my lagers and all thoughts will be appreciated.

[zgoda]

You can make shortcuts, but decoction is worth all the burden - you'd get more malty and bready character from just pilsner malt, without any crystal/melanoiden malt. What's not necessary is protein rest, although short rest at ~55*C will improve final clarity and some say it's good for head retention. That's the tradition. Now comes the economy, which draws decoction as expensive in terms of energy & time consumption, that's why most German breweries switched to hohkurz step mashing, that's 3 or 4-step mash (55/62/72/76*C, or in simplified form 55/66/76*C). Step mashing does not darken beer that much as decoction due to lower production of melanoids, which is desired effect in for German consumers, they just like their helles to be piss yellow.

Mashout is done by raising mash temperature to ~76*C for short time just before sparging/filtering.

[fego]

I haven't made many lagers but they taste better than any commercial lager I've tried and I did this:

Mash at 2.5k/1litre @66C for 90 mins
top up tun with liquor @80c to raise temp to >75C stir up
leave a few minutes
fly sparge with liquor >80C (after recircing)
boil 90 mins
ferment at 12C for three weeks

Works for me but there's a reason decoction exists and I'm sure therefore the end result would be even better if that was introduced. I just don't have the equipment.

[Froggit]

You can make shortcuts, but decoction is worth all the burden - you'd get more malty and bready character from just pilsner malt, without any crystal/melanoiden malt. What's not necessary is protein rest, although short rest at ~55*C will improve final clarity and some say it's good for head retention. That's the tradition. Now comes the economy, which draws decoction as expensive in terms of energy & time consumption, that's why most German breweries switched to hohkurz step mashing, that's 3 or 4-step mash (55/62/72/76*C, or in simplified form 55/66/76*C). Step mashing does not darken beer that much as decoction due to lower production of melanoids, which is desired effect in for German consumers, they just like their helles to be piss yellow.

The whole reason i started brewing initially was due to a european beer tour i did last year which culminated in 3 days at Oktoberfest, On the trip we visited 8 different countries and i can honestly say a bad pint didnt pass my lips the whole trip (apart from some monk brewed stuff in france which was a cross between bitter and cider). During the trip we couldnt decide if british lager was complete tosh or if we were being swept away by the different countries, cultures ect ect making us think the beer was better.

We decided to finish out trip in our local making it the last stop, we were sadly dissapointed in the lager of which before we left we considered to be one of the best in the area, british lager just hasnt seemed the same to me since.

I want to try and get as close to the German style as i can, i know im not gonna be able to replicate them but i hope i can get an improvment on british lager.

[zgoda]

That's just a tradition thing. By the end of XIX century nearly all beer brewed in Central Europe (that counts Germany too) was lager. We just have longer tradition of lager brewing, so we had the time to master it.

Anyway, any lager you'd brew yourself will be better than eurolager piss like Stella, providing all technology part is done right, specially temperature control.

[lyonsy81]

I wouldn't be deterred by people claiming Decoction is a waste of time & that modern day malts should give you a desired effect, i think these ideas are ludicrous as i have used Melanoiden malts before & got nowhere near a Decoction like taste.
For me Beers like Sam Adams Boston Lager is what made me want to do a decoction, the maltiness is second to none.

I tried doing a decoction mash at the weekend but unfortunately after trying i realised my equipment wasn't up to scratch so for the next mash i will be armed with the proper equipment in order to do it properly, but people saying Decoction is a waste of time are probably not doing it correctly or are the same people who suggest that all you need to do to sell your beer on the market is to fill out a form lol

The germans are renowned for making awesome beers for many years so i would be inclined to listen to them & keep at it
Hopefully some day i will brew Sam Adams Boston Lager before Shepheard Neame destroys it from brewing it under licence

[Normski]

I tried doing a decoction mash at the weekend but unfortunately after trying i realised my equipment wasn't up to scratch so for the next mash i will be armed with the proper equipment in order to do it properly, but people saying Decoction is a waste of time are probably not doing it correctly or are the same people who suggest that all you need to do to sell your beer on the market is to fill out a form lol

So what was wrong with your equipment, what was not up to scratch?
What are you going to change to have the proper equipment.
Norm

[lyonsy81]

I think the Pot i was using was way to big & had a copper bottom on it, When i removed part of my Mash it was taking ages for it to get up to boiling point around 100oC, I was thinking is it the pot is too big or is it my cooker? So I think next time i am going to use 2 smaller pots so i can get up to around the 100oC, with my large pot i was only getting up to the late 80's.

I still managed some form of decoction mash, I started at 35oC, Got up to 50oC, then 60oC then final Temp was only 67oC.
I still think it has to give me some change to my overall beer considering i usually only do a single infusion for 90 mins
This whole process took me about 3 hours to mash so im hoping for something in return, i tried in 23 L ale using Marris Otter, Crystal & Munich bittered & finished with First Gold & fermented with WLP Edinburgh Ale Yeast, so i won't get my first taste until at least Tuesday.

First Decoction Mash was a learning curve for me as you never truly learn something until you do it yourself.

Hope this answers your question Norm

[Normski]

Hi lyonsy
Have you only done the One Decoction mash then? As your comments made me think you had lots of experience of them. I personally don’t think decoction is necessary to make a top quality lager. But hopefully you'll try a different pot and that will work for you. Good luck.
Norm

[charliefarley]

'neccesary' is not the point here.

We all know what difference 1C makes to a single step infusion mash, of course a decoction is going to make a difference.
Personally I do multi step infusion mashes as my equipment is set up for this (herms), but I'm sure I miss out on the Maillard reactions you get by boiling part of the grains.

Sounds like you need a bigger burner rather than a smaller pot.

Go for it and good luck!

[lyonsy81]

Well Norm i would say i have plenty of experience of drinking beers that involve Decoction mashes and the distinction for me in the Caramel notes is not present in most Lagers from these shores, I have tried beers like Sam Adams, DAB, Pilsner Urquell, Staropramen & I would even go as far to say that Brooklyn Lager possibly uses Decoction. I guess everybody is different and we all want different things from our beers i want a caramely & malty beer and i hope Decoction Mashes will achieve this.

I have been brewing possibly every 2 weeks for the last 3 years and have done single infusion mashes at different temps & raised temps &there is still no comparison in the maltiness that i achieve to the beers i've mentioned above, I've tried lowering the IBU of my beers to even around 27 IBU & still nothing like the above.

What Lagers do you drink, how long have you been brewing and what do you try to brew?

I think that The Sam Adams brewery in America is prob one the best breweries in the world & why would they adopt a traditional brewing technique from The Germans if it didn't make any difference to the beers.

[Froggit]

'neccesary' is not the point here.

We all know what difference 1C makes to a single step infusion mash, of course a decoction is going to make a difference.
Personally I do multi step infusion mashes as my equipment is set up for this (herms), but I'm sure I miss out on the Maillard reactions you get by boiling part of the grains.

Sounds like you need a bigger burner rather than a smaller pot.

Go for it and good luck!

Hi charlie, what differences could be expected in the finished beer using decoction compared to multi step infusion?
Is it gonna be purely malt or does it add other things too!

[Normski]

Well Norm i would say i have plenty of experience of drinking beers that involve Decoction mashes and the distinction for me in the Caramel notes is not present in most Lagers from these shores, I have tried beers like Sam Adams, DAB, Pilsner Urquell, Staropramen & I would even go as far to say that Brooklyn Lager possibly uses Decoction. I guess everybody is different and we all want different things from our beers i want a caramely & malty beer and i hope Decoction Mashes will achieve this.

I have been brewing possibly every 2 weeks for the last 3 years and have done single infusion mashes at different temps & raised temps &there is still no comparison in the maltiness that i achieve to the beers i've mentioned above, I've tried lowering the IBU of my beers to even around 27 IBU & still nothing like the above.

What Lagers do you drink, how long have you been brewing and what do you try to brew?

I think that The Sam Adams brewery in America is prob one the best breweries in the world & why would they adopt a traditional brewing technique from The Germans if it didn't make any difference to the beers.

I think with small batches its becomes very dificult to replicate some of specialist results that some breweries achieve. It may be posible to add more of a caramelly malty taste in other ways. I've done different mashes, and for me Decoction has never resulted in much difference, worth the bother.
Over the last four decades of brewing I've found that im happy enough with a simpler brew. I do make lager a few times a year useing a Pilsner Urquell type recipe. Always been happy with it.