High gravity, low volume

[darkonnis]

I've been reading through this and I dont understand, the problem is quite simple and the answer has been clear from the get go.

Problem: Not enough volume in boiler
Issue: You aren't putting enough water in to sparge with.
Solution: Sparge until you have the volume you want

Efficiency is a made up number which is only a rough estimate at best given the small quantities we use.

[Brew4]

How can I sparge with more water when the sugar in the grains give in before I have collected the correct volume?

What I meant with the efficiency figure is that e.g. 1037 of x amount of litres (the gravity figure I am aiming for) gives 80% mash efficiency
While 1042 of x amount of litres also gives 80% efficiency but with a top up....
Let me explain further....

This is all with BeerSmith 2

So I aim for 19 litre batch at OG 1042
I mash in 3.5kg Pale Malt
I have my equipment profile set up with deadspace, boil off etc etc etc
The BeerSmith recipe says:

19l batch
pre boil volume estimate 24.68 (72% brew house efficiency, est mash efficiency 82.8%)
pre boil gravity estimate 1037 (going to 1042 OG after boil off and losses etc)

I get calculated pre boil volume 21.22
pre boil gravity 1042
gives a mash efficiency of 81.4%

HOWEVER...

If I then use a dilution calculator to work out dilution back to estimated pre boil gravity of 1037, it gives the correct amount of liquid in the boiler
1042 with 21.22 litres diluted to 1037 = adding 3.10 litres
This gets me back to the correct starting gravity in the boiler of approx 24 litres at 1037 gravity

HENCE

both are the same efficiency and I am hitting my targets BUT the difference is that I am not getting enough volume.

Now, it's maybe my poor brain not working and over thinking this but it's not that I am out on efficiency and I can't add more sparge water as the grains give up all the sugar before final volume but at a higher gravity.
SO I am getting the correct amount of sugar for the recipe just not the correct volume of wort.

Hope that explains it from my question and honestly not trying to annoy anyone with this

[Brew4]

Also, I never run out of sparge water, always have some left in the HLT

[orlando]

I think I see the problem. You want a beer at 1.037 but are ending up with a 1.042 wort that you liquour back to achieve it, so want to know why the volumes are wrong, in other words you shouldn't have to liquour back if everything was correct to begin with, is that about right?

If so the problem lies in your pre volume gravity. This will be LESS than your OG of 1.037 as the boil will concentrate the sugar to the 1.037 target. You say you have sparge water left over and that is why, you are stopping sparging too soon. In Beersmith it should give you a figure for the pre-boil gravity and that is ALWAYS lower than the final OG (if you print off the brew steps you will see it, it also appears on the mash tab, top right under pre-boil volume). I don't understand why you say you are aiming for an OG of 1.042 when you have already said you are aiming for a finished OG of 1.037. I can only assume that the efficiency figure is influencing you and that is where the problem lies. Forget about efficiency and concentrate on getting the correct OG i.e. 1.037 without liquoring back.

[darkonnis]

I can't add more sparge water as the grains give up all the sugar before final volume but at a higher gravity.
SO I am getting the correct amount of sugar for the recipe just not the correct volume of wort.

I'm with Orlando. Sorry but I just don't see the issue as I said before.

Just sparge until you get the volume you want.

I'm fairly confident over sparging is only ever going to happen if you're on the upper limits of efficiency and I'm sure breweries (carlsberg etc who run a very tight series of margins) are in danger of this but us? Not likely, I can't ever remember hearing about it happening to someone in any post or conversation I've had. Forget efficiency, quite literally, it is a made up number which at this level causes more confusion than anything else, get the rest right and come back to this, if your efficiency was say <50% - 60% then yeah it would be worth looking into, asides from that, not so much.

[orlando]

I can't add more sparge water as the grains give up all the sugar before final volume but at a higher gravity.
SO I am getting the correct amount of sugar for the recipe just not the correct volume of wort.

I'm with Orlando. Sorry but I just don't see the issue as I said before.

Just sparge until you get the volume you want.

I'm fairly confident over sparging is only ever going to happen if you're on the upper limits of efficiency and I'm sure breweries (carlsberg etc who run a very tight series of margins) are in danger of this but us? Not likely, I can't ever remember hearing about it happening to someone in any post or conversation I've had. Forget efficiency, quite literally, it is a made up number which at this level causes more confusion than anything else, get the rest right and come back to this, if your efficiency was say <50% - 60% then yeah it would be worth looking into, asides from that, not so much.

One of the concerns with over sparging is the potential to extract harsh tannins from the grain so the advice is to not sparge below say 1.010 but the only thing you should be concerned with there is very high temp sparging > 80c which raises the grain bed to these temps. or more importantly a mash pH over 6. Frankly this is another issue we can deal with if indeed you experience harsh tannins in the finished beer. For now just follow the advice so far and I'm sure you will come out the right side.

[Brew4]

Thanks guys.

Just to clarify:

I want PRE-BOIL gravity to be 1037
to boil down/concentrate to fermenter volume with ORIGINAL GRAVITY of 1042

What I am getting is PRE-BOIL gravity of 1042
which I need to dilute to 1037 in order to boil down/concentrate to fermenter volume with ORIGINAL GRAVITY of 1042

I am getting the correct gravity just with less wort collected.
It's always about 3 litres short and once the 3 litres is added, I get my correct gravity and volume PRE-BOIL according to my recipe.

[orlando]

What do you want the gravity to be before you pitch the yeast 1.037 or 1.042? If it is the former your pre-boil gravity will be approx 1.032 which after boiling will give you an OG prior to pitching of 1.037. If you want an OG of 1.042 to pitch your yeast into then your pre-boil gravity will be approx. 1.037. If your pre boil gravity is 1.042 and you want to pitch into a 1.037 wort you have under sparged, keep sparging until you are at approx 1.032 (this is why you have sparge liquour left over), then after the boil you will have your 1.037 wort ready to cool and pitch your yeast. No diluting, liqouring back, whatever you want to call it, necessary. If you want 1.042 then after sparging to get the appropriate volume of wort into the boiler the gravity has to be approx 1.037 so that once boiled the gravity will rise to the 1.042 gravity wort you want to pitch into.

Unfortunately I still can't work out from your question what you specifically want the pitching gravity to be 1.037 or 1.042 so that is why I have started with that question. Give me that and I will explain again if the explanation above is still not transparent enough. Don't worry we will get there .

[Dave S]

What do you want the gravity to be before you pitch the yeast 1.037 or 1.042? If it is the former your pre-boil gravity will be approx 1.032 which after boiling will give you an OG prior to pitching of 1.037. If you want an OG of 1.042 to pitch your yeast into then your pre-boil gravity will be approx. 1.037. If your pre boil gravity is 1.042 and you want to pitch into a 1.037 wort you have under sparged, keep sparging until you are at approx 1.032 (this is why you have sparge liquour left over), then after the boil you will have your 1.037 wort ready to cool and pitch your yeast. No diluting, liqouring back, whatever you want to call it, necessary. If you want 1.042 then after sparging to get the appropriate volume of wort into the boiler the gravity has to be approx 1.037 so that once boiled the gravity will rise to the 1.042 gravity wort you want to pitch into.

Unfortunately I still can't work out from your question what you specifically want the pitching gravity to be 1.037 or 1.042 so that is why I have started with that question. Give me that and I will explain again if the explanation above is still not transparent enough. Don't worry we will get there .

Hi Orlando
My understanding is that he wants to pitch into 1042, so pre-boil will be 1037. The fact that his pre-boil is 1042, (coincidentally) means that he he has too little wort in the boiler - short by the boil-off volume. I think he's mis-calculated the sparge volume by that amount.

To the OP:

Try upping your sparge liquor by the boil-off amount - should be in the region of 6.5 litres to end up with around 29.5 litres in the boiler. This will vary depending on your boiler's dead space.

[Brew4]

Hi Orlando
My understanding is that he wants to pitch into 1042, so pre-boil will be 1037. The fact that his pre-boil is 1042, (coincidentally) means that he he has too little wort in the boiler - short by the boil-off volume. I think he's mis-calculated the sparge volume by that amount.

To the OP:

Try upping your sparge liquor by the boil-off amount - should be in the region of 6.5 litres to end up with around 29.5 litres in the boiler. This will vary depending on your boiler's dead space.

That's correct.

I get 1042 into the boiler but I want 1037.
I want 1042 pitching gravity.

I get too little volume into the boiler so need more.
I see that I need more sparge water BUT the grains stop giving sugar when I get to the 1042 and pre-boil volume.
Normally sparge down to 1005 but still get less volume.
Always by the same amount as Dave S says.

[Dave S]

Hi Orlando
My understanding is that he wants to pitch into 1042, so pre-boil will be 1037. The fact that his pre-boil is 1042, (coincidentally) means that he he has too little wort in the boiler - short by the boil-off volume. I think he's mis-calculated the sparge volume by that amount.

To the OP:

Try upping your sparge liquor by the boil-off amount - should be in the region of 6.5 litres to end up with around 29.5 litres in the boiler. This will vary depending on your boiler's dead space.

That's correct.

I get 1042 into the boiler but I want 1037.
I want 1042 pitching gravity.

I get too little volume into the boiler so need more.
I see that I need more sparge water BUT the grains stop giving sugar when I get to the 1042 and pre-boil volume.
Normally sparge down to 1005 but still get less volume.
Always by the same amount as Dave S says.

Hi Bew4

Well I reckon you've got 2 choices:
1. carry on sparging until you've got the correct pre-boil volume, or
2. top up to the correct pre-boil volume with water.

Personally I would do 1. I never measure gravity during sparge. Maybe I should, I don't know. I don't even measure it pre-boil, but I always end up with the correct OG - sometimes even higher that target

[crafty john]

Hi Orlando
My understanding is that he wants to pitch into 1042, so pre-boil will be 1037. The fact that his pre-boil is 1042, (coincidentally) means that he he has too little wort in the boiler - short by the boil-off volume. I think he's mis-calculated the sparge volume by that amount.

To the OP:

Try upping your sparge liquor by the boil-off amount - should be in the region of 6.5 litres to end up with around 29.5 litres in the boiler. This will vary depending on your boiler's dead space.

That's correct.

I get 1042 into the boiler but I want 1037.
I want 1042 pitching gravity.

I get too little volume into the boiler so need more.
I see that I need more sparge water BUT the grains stop giving sugar when I get to the 1042 and pre-boil volume.
Normally sparge down to 1005 but still get less volume.
Always by the same amount as Dave S says.

Hi Bew4

Well I reckon you've got 2 choices:
1. carry on sparging until you've got the correct pre-boil volume, or
2. top up to the correct pre-boil volume with water.

Personally I would do 1. I never measure gravity during sparge. Maybe I should, I don't know. I don't even measure it pre-boil, but I always end up with the correct OG - sometimes even higher that target

+1 I never measure gravity when sparging, just stop sparging when you have the correct volume.

[Dave S]

Quick point. I take it you are fly sparging from the general feel of things. The last time I fly sparged was over twenty years ago. Since returning to brewing last year I started batch sparging and have never looked back. I find fly sparging over-rated and more trouble than it's worth.