CRS - how much?

[masterosouffle]

Hi guys,
I really haven't got into water treatment yet and normally just shove in 1/2 a Camden tablet for the chlorine. However I bought some CRS the other day as it was there and would like to use some tomorrow as my water is very hard at 287mg/l CaCO3. is there a rule of thumb I can use just to get it down to a more reasonable level
Cheers

[legion]

I use this post from the liquor section, does anyone know why all of chris-x1 posts are gone?


Chris-x1 wrote:
If your water report does not include alkalinity or total alkalinity (same thing), don't bother asking anyone to decipher it on the forum. There is something you should know and do to help yourself first !!!



Before you do anything, you want to know the total alkalinity of your water expressed as CaCO3 Don't be supprised if this isn't on your water report.

CaCO3 is shorthand for Calcium Carbonate. To standardise alkalinity figures and calculations, brewers refer to alkalinity as an equivilent amount of CaCO3 present in 1L of water. It can be expressed in other ways but we want to know it expressed in terms of CaCO3 or calcium carbonate.

Expressing it as an equivilent amount of CaCO3 or in other words expressing it in terms of CaCO3 means interpreting alkalinity as if it were calcium carbonate that was entirely responsible for the total alkalinity of the water.

This standardises the way we deal with alkalinity and makes some simple calculations even easier.

It is written down on the page as: mg/l CaCO3, for example the alkalinity of my water is 205mg/l CaCO3


If it this figure is given in terms of HCO3 (expresed how much bicarbonate equivilent is present) then change/convert this to the equivilent amount of Calcium Carbonate by dividing it by 1.22, for eg an alkalinity of 1.22mg/l HCO3 = 1.22/1.22 = 1mg/l CaCO3


If you have a figure expressed as Meq/L then multiply the figure by 50 to give you alkalinity (or total alkalinity) expressed as CaCO3, for eg an alkalinity of 1meq/l = an alkalinity of 50mg/l CaCO3mg/l



The reason you want to know the alkalinity of your water is because it is this figure that helps you adjust or control the mash PH. Alkalinity is a buffer that resists shifts in ph with the addition of an acid, without a strong buffer (or high alkalinity) the mild acidic nature of the grains will allow the ph to fall naturally to roughly within the correct range, somewhere near(er)to 5.3. In otherwords, remove the strength of the buffer and you allow the mildly acidic pale malt to do its stuff.


Note: Water ph does not control the mash ph. Don't bother testing it. Total Hardness does not really help either so don't bother reading it, even if you see the letters CaCO3 after it, they are just there to try and catch out those people who can't read instructions .


Pale ales and bitters require a total alkalinity of 25-30mg/l CaCO3


Homebrewers mostly use CRS (carbonate reducing solution) or Murphys AMS (same thing) to control or reduce it. It's an acid that neutralises alkalinity or reduces the carbonates present (same thing as far as we are concerned).


You want your alkalinity (or total alkalinity) figure to be given in terms of CaCO3, this is because we know that 1ml of CRS neutralise 180mg of CaCO3 and therefore will lower the alkalinity. This means you can calculate how much CRS to add to reduce the alkalinity to your target figure of (say) 30mg/l.

For example: If there is 220 mg/l CaCO3 present in your tap water, and you only want 30 mg/l and you also know that 1ml of CRS will reduce the level CaCO3 level in 1 litre of water by 180mg then:

First take away 30 from 220 (the amount of CaCO3 we want to remain behind from the amount that is currently there)

220 - 30 = 190 (removing 190mg CaCO3 per litre you will leave behind 30mg/l)

to work out how many mls of CRS is required to do this, calculate or how many 180's there are in 190.

190/180 = 1.05 (I prefer not to round up as it's better to slightly under do it than over do it)

You now no that by adding 1.05mls of CRS to 1L water with a total akalinity of 220mg/l CaCO3 you will reduce the alkalinity to 30mg/l CaCO3

If you want to treat 10L of water you will add 10 x 1.05 = 10.5mls of CRS and if you want to treat 25L of water you add 25 x 1.05 = 26.25mls of CRS and so on.


If you don't know what the total akalinity of your tap water is and you can't find it on a water report, test it yourself, it will cost you about the same as 2-3 pints of beer from your local pub and about 10 minutes of your time reading through this thread

>>water testing and treatment thread<<

hint:

http://www.charterhouse-aquatics.co.uk/ ... -1967.html



By testing it yourself, you will get better results than someone who relies on a figure from their water report (if you follow the instrucions in the video and the advice in the thread) because you will have a current, up to date accurate figure for the alkalinity of your tap water.

Some one who relies on a water report could have (is likely to have) and end of year average,or a figure that was taken several months ago and averages or out of date figures can be significantly different than the actual figure. Best case scenario, your ph will be off, worst case scenario, you strip the plating off your elements.

Buying a test kit will also give you the oppotunity to check you have added the correct amount of CRS by testing the water once it has been treated and you will be able to make sure that you actually do have the residual alkalinity (the alkalinity remaining) you want.

It will also tell you if your alkalinity varies from week to week or month to month which it can easily do.

If you are lucky enough to have an alkalinity of 80mg/l or less straight from the tap you can just leave it alone and brew as is once you have removed the chlorine. It may be a little high for pale ales and bitters but it isn't high enough to worry.

Whatever your alkalinity you will probably find you get best results by adding a tsp of gypsum to your mash and a tsp of gypsum to your boil. This boosts your calcium level which helps with all areas of brewing, from the mash to the boil and to fermentation and it will help with presentation of your beer (give it polish). Just because 1 tsp in each helps it doesn't follow that 5 tsps in each is better .

If your water reports tells you what your calcium level is, great. Aim to adjust it to at least 50mg/l or better still closer to 150mg/l.

Don't know how to do that ? Add a tsp of gypsum to the mash and 1 to the boil and you will be close enough.

>>Related Thread<<

Bump

[Eric]

Yes, a great pity those postings are no more, a long story best forgotten? Anyway, nicely summarised.

With water of alkalinity 287 mg/L CaCO3, you'd likely want to use enough CRS to remove 260 mg from each litre. A problem comes, if say, the water was to contain only 250 mg/L, when not only would you get the wrong result, but may also find no nickel coating on the element in your HLT.
I'd advise you get means to test your water before using CRS.

[masterosouffle]

Thanks guys, great information there. For tomorrows brew I think I'll start with 1ml per litre, at least it will be an improvement without the risk of over doing it, sound okay?
I have got a Hanna alkalinity test kit, but haven't had the chance to get my head round it all yet, have spent too much time building (read buying) shiny
Cheers

[fego]

You really should use that kit and test the water properly if you are to take it seriously. However, for this brew, to the extent it helps, i have similar hard water and used to use 1 ml per litre for pale beers and two thirds of that for darkies. Ive since reduced it by another third so 20 ml in 30 litres of liquor for pales and 15 for darks because I did indeed lose the nickel on my HLT element.

[Eric]

I did indeed lose the nickel on my HLT element.

Snap.

[guypettigrew]

One of these test kits will give you your alkalinity, then you can use the Brupak calculator to work out how much CRS to use.

It's a bit complicated the first time, but you'll get the hang of it soon enough.

Guy

[mikesmith1611]

[quote="Eric"][quote="fego"] I did indeed lose the nickel on my HLT element.[/quote]

Snap.[/quote]
Hi all,

This is my first post on a site I've used countless times and always got the answer I needed! Now is the time for a question of my own:
I am fairly new to all grain brewing and have just started getting into water treatment as I live in a high water alkalinity area 274ppm CaCo3 (as measured with a Salifert test kit). For
the rest of my water profiles Calcium, Chloride, Sulphate, Sodium and Magnesium I am using the values from my water report.(As the alkalinity value was consistent I am assuming these *'less important'* minerals are consistent).
*I realise that these are still important : )*
So in order to see if my mash PH is in range I have modified the EZ water calculator to change the water profile according to additions of CRS (based on Brupaks instructions & other sources for how Chloride and Sulphate change). If what I have done is correct (im 99% sure it is) it is suggesting that for a Pale Ale (~10 EBC) I need to add ~50ml of CRS to ~30l of water to get a mash PH of around 5.4. Which leaves me with a negative alkalinity as ppmCaCo3.

Does this sound correct and would this strip the kettle elements of nickel on my HLT?

Thanks,

Mike

[fisherman]

I dose with CRS to bring my alkalinity down and always do a salifert test after I have dosed just to be sure. So two tests one before CRS and one afterwards to confirm you have dosed to the alkalinty you want before you mash.
Happy Brewing

[mikesmith1611]

[quote="fisherman"]I dose with CRS to bring my alkalinity down and always do a salifert test after I have dosed just to be sure. So two tests one before CRS and one afterwards to confirm you have dosed to the alkalinty you want before you mash.
Happy Brewing[/quote]

Yeah that sounds like a sensible idea.. but what is a safe range of Alkalinity for my kettle elements ?
How much of a difference did water treatment make to your beer?

[orlando]

I did indeed lose the nickel on my HLT element.

Snap.

Is that a problem and if so in what way.

As a contribution to the thread this site is particularly useful and has a calculator that may help.

[Eric]

I dose with CRS to bring my alkalinity down and always do a salifert test after I have dosed just to be sure. So two tests one before CRS and one afterwards to confirm you have dosed to the alkalinty you want before you mash.
Happy Brewing

Yeah that sounds like a sensible idea.. but what is a safe range of Alkalinity for my kettle elements ?
How much of a difference did water treatment make to your beer?

With alkalinity gone, any surplus CRS, a mix of hydrochloric and sulphuric acids, will form salts with metals. I now treat my water in a plastic bucket and test it before putting it into the HLT. Any level of alkalinity means the water contains no meaningful quantity of acid.

Water treatment lets me make a larger range of styles of beer than I can without treatment.

[mikesmith1611]

Yeah I thought that might be the case so any alkalinity above 0 will be safe. I will take your advice and treat in a plastic bucket and test before going into the HLT.
Thanks