Lager with Notty

[Rick_UK]

Ay up chaps

I'm considering brewing a lager with notty yeast fermented at about 15'C (after my last experience with lager yeast and a 4 day lag!) The manufacturers recommend the yeast can be used in this way. I'll be brewing a bavarian style pilsner with plenty of malt and hop flavour and i'm not a lager purist so won't be to worried if a few ale esters come through.

Just wondered if anyone else has tried this and how it turned out?

Rick

[seymour]

I too have read that's possible. But if you have temperature control, why not just use an inexpensive pack or two of Saflager W-34/70? That's the true legendary Weihenstephan strain.

[barney]

I find that after a month or two, some of the pales that I brew take on lagerish tones. I think the yeast type flavours fade over time rather like the hop flavour fades. I then end up with the base recipe flavours of the malt and hops etc.

I was suppin a chilled Bitter and twisted clone last night, 3 months old and could see how lager drinkers would easily be turned to the dark side with that style of beer.

Have a go, with the notty, that subdues everything. and it will turn out nice

[a-slayer]

I made had my stab at a imitation 5% ABV lager using 97% pale malt and 3% flaked rice, Saaz and Hallertauer hersbrucker for the hops. Used Gervin (Nottingham) English Ale Yeast and just fermented as normal. Turned out very good, several lager drinking friends approved of it.

[darkonnis]

Any chance of looking at some of these recipes please, this sounds rather interesting and I've been toying with the idea of a lager that isn't a lager

[a-slayer]

Any chance of looking at some of these recipes please, this sounds rather interesting and I've been toying with the idea of a lager that isn't a lager

Lager Two 14-05-13


Fermentable Colour Grams Ratio
Flaked Rice 0 EBC 250 grams 2.7%
Pale Malt 5 EBC 8860 grams 97.3%


Hop Variety Alpha Time grams Ratio
Saaz Whole 3.5 % 10 mins 50 grams 20%
Hallertauer Hersbrucker 4.1 % 90 mins 130 grams 53.2%
Hallertauer Hersbrucker 4.1 % 0 mins 67 grams 26.8%


Final Volume: 46 Litres
Original Gravity: 1.045
Final Gravity: 1.010
Alcohol Content: 4.5% ABV
Total Liquor: 62.7 Litres
Mash Liquor: 22.8 Litres
Mash Efficiency: 75 %
Bitterness: 34 EBU
Colour: 7 EBC

Yeast Gervin English Ale Yeast

It turned out that I got better mash efficiency than 75% and the OG was in fact over 1.050, this was a very simple beer to make and very good.

[Ben711200]

This was a quick one I did so I could make something my girlfiend liked (hence the name..). Bittering addition with whatever I had that was high alpha and Saaz for noble lagerishness. I fermented at normal ale temperatures and it came out fairly neutral. Definitely got closer to lager and lost some ale characteristics after a month or two in the bottle. It's gone down very well indeed.

ale for lager girls


Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 20.5
Total Grain (kg): 3.910
Total Hops (g): 60.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.045 (°P): 11.2
Final Gravity (FG): 1.011 (°P): 2.8
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.42 %
Colour (SRM): 4.3 (EBC): 8.4
Bitterness (IBU): 33.5 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 75
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
3.519 kg Pale Ale Malt (90%)
0.391 kg Torrified Wheat (10%)

Hop Bill
----------------
20.0 g Northern Brewer Leaf (10.95% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)
20.0 g Saaz Leaf (3.6% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)
20.0 g Saaz Leaf (3.6% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------
1/4 protofloc tablet 15 mins

Single step Infusion at 66°C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 20°C with Danstar Nottingham


Recipe Generated with BrewMate

[barney]

This is my Pale Ale made for a lager drinker.

Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
7.50 kg Lager Malt (3.9 EBC) Grain 1 92.6 %
0.50 kg Munich Malt (17.7 EBC) Grain 2 6.2 %
0.10 kg Oats, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 3 1.2 %
35.00 g Challenger [7.50 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 4 15.8 IBUs
100.00 g Hallertauer Hersbrucker [1.40 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 5 6.1 IBUs
30.00 g Perle [5.10 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 6 5.2 IBUs
80.00 g Hallertauer Hersbrucker [1.40 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 7 2.3 IBUs
30.00 g Celeia [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 8 1.9 IBUs
30.00 g Celeia [5.50 %] - Boil 2.0 min Hop 9 0.8 IBUs
20.00 g Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.80 %] - Aroma Steep 60.0 min Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
10.00 g Celeia [4.50 %] - Aroma Steep 60.0 min Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg TV3 (Brewlabs #) Yeast 12 -

Beer Profile

Measured Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Alcohol by Vol: 5.5 %
Bitterness: 32.0 IBUs Calories: 484.7 kcal/l
Est Color: 6.8 EBC

I gave half the batch away and bottled half. It went down well. To Well. Cornie was gone in three days.

[Rick_UK]

That's some serious hops for a lager Barney! Sounds lovely...

I was thinking of a similar malt base of lager malt with 10% munich or vienna and 5% wheat malt. Hopped to about 30ibu with hallertau / hersbrecker at t-10, t-0 and post boil steep.

I may even skip the lagering phase to end up with a lagerish beer as Cooky says....

Rick

[Rookie]

I too have read that's possible. But if you have temperature control, why not just use an inexpensive pack or two of Saflager W-34/70? That's the true legendary Weihenstephan strain.

I think Wyeast 2124 is also the 34/70. On the Wyeast website it says that this strain can be used at ale temperatures to good effect.

[seymour]

I too have read that's possible. But if you have temperature control, why not just use an inexpensive pack or two of Saflager W-34/70? That's the true legendary Weihenstephan strain.

I think Wyeast 2124 is also the 34/70. On the Wyeast website it says that this strain can be used at ale temperatures to good effect.

You're right, Wyeast 2124 is believed to be derived of the same historic lager strain. There is some overlap with ale temperatures (as in 58°F/14° max), and I've used it thus to produce a nice California Common style beer, but I wouldn't recommend using it without temperature control during this hot time of year. An Alt or Kölsch strain (or again, Nottingham) would be much better, in my opinion

[Bribie]

In Brisbane, Bacchus Brewing use lager yeasts at ale temperatures for a number of their lagers and they work just fine - I've got hammered on their products a few times

The reason they had to do this is because they started off as a "brew for you" which are popular in the USA and Canada as well. You basically order five cases of a particular brew, go in and help on brew day and pitch the yeast yourself, then come back on bottling day and do the bottling, then take the beer home. That way the brewery isn't selling you alcohol, they are just selling you the basic ingredients and leasing part of the brewery to you for you to do a substantial part of the work. Thus no excise paid. Your FV (60L size) is kept in a air conditioned room for 10 days at 19 degrees; there's a selection of ales and lagers in there, no differentiation. Then your FV gets wheeled round into a refrigerated cold room for 10 days at 3 degrees before bottling day.

Bacchus decided to expand its operations and go commercial, got licensed and now produces mostly keg beers for the pub trade - however they got stuck with their existing setup of 19 degrees for primary, and, as lager yeasts had already been used in the brew-for-you setup they continued to do that, and produce some very nice Pilsners and a big array of lagers similar to Corona, Aussie lagers, Danish style lagers etc. (as well as ales of course))

The use S-189 or S-23 depending on what style they are doing and they all turn out clean and no off flavours.

Just described the above rather convoluted story above to emphasise that lager yeasts can be, and are, used at ale temperatures with good results.

[darkonnis]

Awesome stuff mate, though you've given me 2 more ideas where I didn't need any.... b*****d Looking forward t otrying it!

[super_simian]

I can't speak for S-23 (in fact I've heard some negatives, but not my experience) but know for a fact that S-189 at 18C makes a damn clean mega-brew lager type beer. 95% pils malt, 5% sugar or "maize" (aka instant polenta) or rice (aka minute rice) or whatever. 8-15IBU of a 'clean' or 'noble' hop. 6 days at 18, 1-3 days at 21 and a week at 5ish. Bottle or keg, ignore the yeast deposit.

TBH, it's a bit of work for a fairly rubbish beer, and if you naturally condition you'll never get 'crystal clear lager'. But it can put paid to your lager boy mates who say "homebrew is rubbish". And isn't that good enough? If you keg and force carb you'll get lager heads saying "You should sell this man/dude/bro/mate/bruv...."

[darkonnis]

sounds likethe first step on the path to enlightenment... I might have a look and make a micro batch with it.