Duvel tripel hop 2014 clone help

[Wyvern]

Hi, I'm looking for a some help formulating a duvel tripel hop 2014 clone or more specificly trying to recreate that dry, light and crisp flavour a bit like in karmeliet.

I know the hops used are saaz, styrian goldings and dry hop with mosaic.

I was thinking of the following;

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 40.00 l
Boil Size: 44.53 l
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Vol: 42.64 l
Final Bottling Vol: 39.00 l
Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 73.8 %

6.50 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Dingmans (2.7 EBC) Grain 1 46.2 %
1.50 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 2 10.7 %
0.80 kg Barley, Flaked (3.3 EBC) Grain 3 5.7 %
0.80 kg Oats, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 4 5.7 %
0.80 kg Oats, Malted (2.0 EBC) Grain 5 5.7 %
0.80 kg Wheat, Flaked (3.2 EBC) Grain 6 5.7 %
55.00 g Saaz [3.75 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 12.0 IBUs
10.00 g Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 3.1 IBUs
25.00 g Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 1.6 IBUs
40.00 g Saaz [3.75 %] - Boil 3.0 min Hop 10 1.0 IBUs
2.5 kg Candi Sugar, Clear (1.0 EBC) Sugar 13 20.3 % (During fermentation)

2 pkg Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) [35.49 ml] Yeast 12
60 g Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 14 0.0 IBUs

let me know what you think.

Cheers,

Wyvern

[RobWalker]

Isn't Duvel just made from pale malt and candi sugar? If so you probably want to stick with that...no need to underestimate a simple malt bill. With that line up, you'll be making a different beer entirely.

I've personally had much better experiences dry hopping with pellets rather than leaf, so if you have them I'd recommend them!

[Wyvern]

I think you're right about the standard duvel blone, however the tripel is much lighter in colour and very cloudy a bit like a hoegaarden.



It also hits a whopping 9.5%!

Thanks for the tip about the dry hopping with pellets, makes sense i guess, more surface area.

[MTW]

I'd echo what Rob said!

Having made several 9-10% tripels and having drunk the 2014 Mosaic myself last week, I wouldn't stick oats in it. You may just end up with body you don't want. If you use at least 12-15% sugar (part of which can be candi), mash low (say 65C) and pitch a nice big starter (perhaps 700ml stepped up to 3.5L) then you should get the dryness from 85%+ attenuation! The yeast will be the biggest player here. Duvel apparently use twin strains (according to Protz) and split the batch, at least in their usual offering, blending together afterwards. So what they give you in the WLP 'Duvel' I'm not quite sure, but 570 is supposed to be it. Having said that, I love 530 and you shouldn't be disappointed. Keep it low (17C) for three days IMHO and crank it up from there. My 1080s take three weeks to eat up the last few points with WLP 530, whatever I do.

I'm not sure I'm as keen as you on the Mosaic tripel hop, or last years Sorachi Ace, but good luck with it and yes, I've had more luck with pellets for dry hopping generally, like Rob.

[Wyvern]

Thank you! I'll drop the oats from the grain bill as advised. May also lower sugar down to 15% from 20% and up the pils a bit.

I would have used 570 but I already have some 530 that s going out of date soon. I did really enjoy the 2014, more so than 2012and I haven't had the 2013.

I may have to slit the batch in 2 and do half with mosaic and one with Wai iti, I recently had the pleasure of drinking a saison made by a colleague at work which used it and it was fantastic.

How does the following look?

8.50 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.7 EBC) Grain 1 58.2 %
2.00 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 2 13.7 %
1.00 kg Barley, Flaked (3.3 EBC) Grain 3 6.8 %
0.80 kg Wheat, Flaked (3.2 EBC) Grain 4 5.5 %
2.30 kg Candi Sugar, Clear (1.0 EBC) Sugar 10 15.8 %

Cheers,

Wyvern

[Sadfield]

You'll have to google this and do some research to verify, but somewhere in my befuddled, booze addled brain I seem to recall that Belgian fermentation temps are quite high to push the attenuation.

[MTW]

Thank you! I'll drop the oats from the grain bill as advised. May also lower sugar down to 15% from 20% and up the pils a bit.

I would have used 570 but I already have some 530 that s going out of date soon. I did really enjoy the 2014, more so than 2012and I haven't had the 2013.

I may have to slit the batch in 2 and do half with mosaic and one with Wai iti, I recently had the pleasure of drinking a saison made by a colleague at work which used it and it was fantastic.

How does the following look?

8.50 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.7 EBC) Grain 1 58.2 %
2.00 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 2 13.7 %
1.00 kg Barley, Flaked (3.3 EBC) Grain 3 6.8 %
0.80 kg Wheat, Flaked (3.2 EBC) Grain 4 5.5 %
2.30 kg Candi Sugar, Clear (1.0 EBC) Sugar 10 15.8 %

Cheers,

Wyvern

I meant to say, the DTH Mosaic I tried was completely clear and in any case and I'm not sure why you're going with all that wheat anyway. I would just go maybe 82% Pilsner, 3% wheat and 15% Destrose (or 500g candi and the rest dextrose or cane). Your hop schedule and the yeast should do the rest.

You'll have to google this and do some research to verify, but somewhere in my befuddled, booze addled brain I seem to recall that Belgian fermentation temps are quite high to push the attenuation.

Even at 17C, the 530 throws of enormous banana esters during growth (say< 3days) so I keep it down there and crank it up to 24C or so over the next week. I've had up to 90% attenuation that way, but with acceptable esters. If Belgian commercial brewers are starting it any higher, then I suspect they are pitching more yeast than me, getting fewer divisions and esters anyway, even though I've 'aimed' for a 'correct' pitch rate of around 18M cells/ml in 1.075 wort from the starters.

[Sadfield]

Yes, sorry, I meant they allow the temp to rise, as opposed to maintaining a set temperature. As I recall temps as high as c29C for some brewers.

Just looked on the Duvel website and they go from 20-26C over 5 days. Also they use all three hops in the boil, then dry hop with Mosaic.

[beerlion]

The grain bill for Duvel is pilsner malt with sugar, but Wyvern also mentioned Karemleit, which as far as I know uses 6 grains (malted and unmalted barley, wheat and oats) along with sugar. I'm not sure about quantities though.

[Wyvern]

ahh I just re-read tad they also use the mosaic during the boil although i'm guessing at the end? I think ill add some at the end of the boil. I've taken all but 500g of the wheat out and upped the pils again. Thinking I may do this as a 20L brew as it's the first time.

As for temp control I have a converted tall fridge which fits 2 30L fermenters so that's not a problem. I was planning a 2L starter for the 40L but I may keep it the same for the 20L.

cheers for all the help guys.

[Wyvern]

The grain bill for Duvel is pilsner malt with sugar, but Wyvern also mentioned Karemleit, which as far as I know uses 6 grains (malted and unmalted barley, wheat and oats) along with sugar. I'm not sure about quantities though.

Yes, Hoppiness aside I actually find the feel of the duvel tripel similar to Karmeliet. But I haven't had them back to back so I could be mistaken but they are both very different from say westmalle which I find quite sweet.

There is actually a Karmeliet clone on the Candi Sugar site which uses a fair amount of wheat which is what I based my clone recipe on although that one uses a mead yeast which I find quite odd. http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3 ... _-_004.pdf I'd be interested to see their tripel hop clone which they are experimenting with once it's published.

[Bennemans]

All,

This will be my first contribution to this forum.....be gentle.
though the last reply is almost a month ago, never the less i'd like to give my version of the Duvel-clone.
This clone recipe is based on a recipe created by Peter en René Vermerriss (Dutch brothers).
It is a fairly simple recipe, which i brewed 2 times allready.
In this recipe the dry hop addition is Amarillo, but you can add whatever hop you like.
Instead of Amarillo i added Citra hops.
It beacame a great tasting beer, with a subtle citrus taste.

I did some translations in the recipe, if there are any questions.......just ask.

Ben..


Basis------------------------------------------------------------------
Naam recipe : Ben Beduveld #2

Date : 29-4-2014
Type : Sterke Blonde (Strong Blond)
Aantal liters : 20
Gewenst begin SG : 1080 (8,6 Vol% alc.)
Brouwzaalrendement : 68.0% (Brewhouse efficiency

Algemeen---------------------------------------------------------------
Totaal benodigd brouwwater : 39,13 liter (total brewing water)
Maischdikte : 4,20 l/kg (mash thickness)
Maischwater : 26,68 liter (total mashwater)
Spoelwater : 12,46 liter (sparge water)
Kooktijd : 60 minuten (boil time)
Berekende kleur : 9 EBC(BrouwVisie) calculated colour
Berekende bitterheid : 27 EBU(Glenn Tinseth) bitterness

Mout storting----------------------------------------------------------
Pilsmout 3 EBC 83,5 % 5,959 kg 3 EBC Pilsenermalt
Rijstvlokken 5,5 % 0,393 kg 1 EBC rice flakes
Kristalsuiker 11,0 % 0,785 kg 0 EBC plane sugar (added during boil, last 10 minutes)

Massa hop----HOPS-----------------------------------------
Styrian Golding 1,4 % 80 gr FWH 13 EBU
Saaz (CZ) 3,1 % 40 gr FWH 14 EBU
Amarillo 11,0 % 33 gr Koud hop 0 EBU (dry hop 1,5 grams / liter wort) i used Citra hops, you can use whatever you want.

Kruiden----------------------------------------------------------------
Iers Mos Tijdens koken 8 gr 10 Min. (Irish moss,it helps to clarify the wort) (added during the boil, last 10 minutes)

Gist------------------------YEAST-------------------------------------------
Gistsoort : 1388 Belgian Strong Ale (Wyeast) this seems to be the!! Duvel yeast)
Gist toegevoegd als : Giststarter (i made a yeaststarter)
Volume : 1500 ml
Beluchtingstijd : 24 uur aeration time
Temperatuur : 20°C

Maischschema---------MASH SCHEDULE--------------------------------------------------
Maischschema naam: Blonde
Stap 1: 55°C 10 Min. 4,2 l/kg
Stap 2: 63°C 50 Min. 4,2 l/kg
Stap 3: 74°C 10 Min. 4,2 l/kg
Stap 4: 78°C 5 Min. 4,2 l/kg
[/font]

[RobWalker]

Yes, sorry, I meant they allow the temp to rise, as opposed to maintaining a set temperature. As I recall temps as high as c29C for some brewers.

The belgian yeast I use (Mangrove Jack's Belgian Pale Ale) can tolerate up to 32c, so I wouldn't be surprised. Makes it a great summer yeast if you don't have temp control.

[serum]

All,

This will be my first contribution to this forum.....be gentle.
though the last reply is almost a month ago, never the less i'd like to give my version of the Duvel-clone.
This clone recipe is based on a recipe created by Peter en René Vermerriss (Dutch brothers).
It is a fairly simple recipe, which i brewed 2 times allready.
In this recipe the dry hop addition is Amarillo, but you can add whatever hop you like.
Instead of Amarillo i added Citra hops.
It beacame a great tasting beer, with a subtle citrus taste.

I did some translations in the recipe, if there are any questions.......just ask.

Ben..


Basis------------------------------------------------------------------
Naam recipe : Ben Beduveld #2

Date : 29-4-2014
Type : Sterke Blonde (Strong Blond)
Aantal liters : 20
Gewenst begin SG : 1080 (8,6 Vol% alc.)
Brouwzaalrendement : 68.0% (Brewhouse efficiency

Algemeen---------------------------------------------------------------
Totaal benodigd brouwwater : 39,13 liter (total brewing water)
Maischdikte : 4,20 l/kg (mash thickness)
Maischwater : 26,68 liter (total mashwater)
Spoelwater : 12,46 liter (sparge water)
Kooktijd : 60 minuten (boil time)
Berekende kleur : 9 EBC(BrouwVisie) calculated colour
Berekende bitterheid : 27 EBU(Glenn Tinseth) bitterness

Mout storting----------------------------------------------------------
Pilsmout 3 EBC 83,5 % 5,959 kg 3 EBC Pilsenermalt
Rijstvlokken 5,5 % 0,393 kg 1 EBC rice flakes
Kristalsuiker 11,0 % 0,785 kg 0 EBC plane sugar (added during boil, last 10 minutes)

Massa hop----HOPS-----------------------------------------
Styrian Golding 1,4 % 80 gr FWH 13 EBU
Saaz (CZ) 3,1 % 40 gr FWH 14 EBU
Amarillo 11,0 % 33 gr Koud hop 0 EBU (dry hop 1,5 grams / liter wort) i used Citra hops, you can use whatever you want.

Kruiden----------------------------------------------------------------
Iers Mos Tijdens koken 8 gr 10 Min. (Irish moss,it helps to clarify the wort) (added during the boil, last 10 minutes)

Gist------------------------YEAST-------------------------------------------
Gistsoort : 1388 Belgian Strong Ale (Wyeast) this seems to be the!! Duvel yeast)
Gist toegevoegd als : Giststarter (i made a yeaststarter)
Volume : 1500 ml
Beluchtingstijd : 24 uur aeration time
Temperatuur : 20°C

Maischschema---------MASH SCHEDULE--------------------------------------------------
Maischschema naam: Blonde
Stap 1: 55°C 10 Min. 4,2 l/kg
Stap 2: 63°C 50 Min. 4,2 l/kg
Stap 3: 74°C 10 Min. 4,2 l/kg
Stap 4: 78°C 5 Min. 4,2 l/kg
[/font]

Thanks for this. One of the next things I wanted to do was to dry hop one of my blond beers and I was confused about amounts so I might just copy the amounts from this as I have a load of Amarillo kicking around. Most the recipes I've seen with dry hopping are APAs or IPAs with amounts that wouldn't really work with a very yeasty beer.

[Bennemans]

When you do copy the amounts, it should be in line with your brewhouse efficiency. The dry hop part however, is what you wishes it to be at the end. In my version (see recipe) it gives a good citrus aroma and taste to the beer, it is not over powering.
I think that with the 1,5 grams / liter it gives this result. You can change the amounts to your own taste.

To improve the aroma you could add the dry hop in the young beer at a temp of 18 degrees Celsius, by then bringing it down to 5 degrees in 3 -4 days and then leave it to complete 7 till 8 days (that includes the 3-4 days).