Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:57 pm

On the subject of "Brown Malt" in "late 19th Century and 20th Century": This is a drawing I prepared for the sister thread of this one "Ales and Beers (17th, 18th and a bit of 19th Century)". As mentioned for that thread, the drawing isn't scaled! The X-axis is roughly representing the year, but the Y-axis (vertical) can represent (very approximately!) the EBC colour or else, from the depth of plot, the quantity used, as you please, when you please. I did say "very approximately"?
Brown Malt Development.jpg
Brown Malt Development.jpg (12.19 KiB) Viewed 153666 times
The important bit here is how I picture the demise of old Brown and Amber malts, and the development of their modern-day "replacements" from about the mid-19th C. onwards. So, historic "Malting" according to PeeBee! The reasoning is sound, but that's not to say some unforeseen "situation" didn't engineer the demise of "Brown Malt".

Black Malt has been introduced (1817) and Pale Malt is now the main malt constituent in beer (following developments in malt kiln designs and the fuels to feed them, like coke from 1650-ish onwards). The "Brown Malt", once the primary base malt in beer has split in to the lighter "Amber" coloured malts and the darker "Brown" coloured malts for Porter beers. The older ubiquitous, diastatic, "Brown Malt" becomes extinct as more economical "Pale Malts" replace it. Brown Malts must become more flavoursome and colour intense to continue to supply the colour and flavour to beer ("Porter") that is still expected despite the smaller quantity used. In this process of intensifying the colour and flavours the malt would likely become "non-diastatic", but then it is the Pale Malt providing all the diastatic enzymes.

Kilns continued to develop and be used to create different malts, and at the same time "Porter" continued to recede in popularity, until eventually the old-style Brown and Amber Malts became utterly extinct. This would have been hastened by the fire risk created by attempting to make these darker malts more flavoursome. The new malt kilns could replace the old-style amber and brown malts with newer, more uniformly coloured, malts, but in doing so the "modern" brown and amber malts lost many of the features of the older malts. But as Porter and the like had lost its popularity the loss was "accepted".

There were two different approaches to producing diastatically active malt: Slow careful drying of the "green" malt before adding some colour and flavour with more heat at the end. And fast (cheap and cheerful?) drying of the "green" malt such that the main bulk of malt stayed below the temperature that destroyed diastatic enzymes. Enzymes were most likely to be destroyed by elevated temperature if damp. Fast drying would scorch some of the malt such that it would appear "brown". And would denature some starch such that the resulting malt created less "extract" than the carefully handled stuff.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:27 am

As a reminder:

Much of my impression of "Brown Malt" comes from Francois Dyment and his blog site "Brewing Beer the Hard Way". A bit of "Experimental Archeology" certainly helps make decisions on some aspects! He's got a book covering the subject too. Piccies when just reading about it (Ron Pattinson writes loads on brown malt) is too much like hard work.

For example (this is diastatic brown malt): This barley’s looking good in brown
Brown Malt.png
[EDIT: "Diastatic brown malt" isn't really the subject of this thread, which is covering a period when pale malt made up the largest proportion of the grain bill and was doing the "enzyme" work. Hence, I believe the brown malt was made darker than the picture and probably wasn't "diastatic" (it didn't need to be). This would help produce more flavour from the smaller quantity of brown malt (and colour, but most of that was being provided by black malt).]
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:50 am

Ah, forget all this babble, I need to get on and put it into practice (I'm getting low on stocks again). There's the "Wadworth 6X" to do along with the XXXX (stronger of the two!) precursor discussed here: Wadworth 6X recipe variations. It fills my new found growing preference for Edwardian and Inter-war "X-Ales" (Mild Ale) and figuring a well-known (and personal favourite) "premium bitter" (6X) has morphed from (correction: is!) one of these "mild ales" makes it compulsory target.

And then there's all these old "Stout" recipes Ron Pattinson keeps publishing ahead of his next book ("Stout!"). I've mentioned the Reid one earlier in the thread: Let's Brew - 1867 Reid Export Treble Stout. He's also very recently published a "less extreme" recipe in: Let's Brew - 1900 Whitbread Single Stout. Hum ... which? Both? These old English stout recipes differ from Porter in that (apart from being stronger in alcohol!) they often contained "Amber Malt". And like the "Brown Malt", the modern samples of these malts simply will not do! That Reid one especially will come out super-astringent with 57% modern Amber Malt, that's assuming you can contrive some way to convert it to something fermentable. Excellent candidates for my Amber (a pale Amber?) and Brown Malt constructions (the Brown could be non-diastatic for these periods of 19th and 20th C.). The Whitbread one can also make use of my "Invert Sugar" (No.2 and No.4) constructions.

I'm sure I can employ those new Simpson malts (like "Cornish Gold") in the "Amber Malt" emulations?

And then there's all the peripheral recipes to do. And the brewery modifications to finish. Busy, busy!
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Sat Jul 15, 2023 1:51 pm

After almost three months since declaring my intent, many weeks of drinking commercial bottled beer ('cos my homebrew had dried up), a lot of house and brewery improvements (the house is twice the mess now) and lots of yeast falling out of "use by" date, I finally get the Wadworth 6X brewed. 22L batch, OG50, IBUs 22 (calc). Actually came out OG52 and a litre short, should have "liquored back" but I'm always worried about unnecessarily mucking about with a done brew.

First the usual screenshot "evidence" I'm not making it up (or proof I'm good with computer drawing packages?):
Wadworth6X-1940-Day4.jpg
Wadworth6X-1940-Day4.jpg (52.72 KiB) Viewed 153372 times
Original "Tilt" Hydrometer so traces a bit rough (compared to "PRO"). Usual pattern, but different yeast (MJ M42 ... not sure its suitable - too "neutral"? - but I was to give it a try). Gradual start to fermentation but finished in usual time (just over two days).

This is a recipe I gleaned from my own research, not Ron Pattinson's (for a change). A historic "Mild Ale" that's still available, but masquerading as a premium "Bitter" (or "Amber Ale" now as "Bitter" is currently out of fashion as a name). Its precursor was a XXXX; the stronger of two Wadworth brewed in 1922 (6X appeared in 1923). The XXXX survived WWI with most of its strength (OG 1.057) but I've elected to brew an early WWII version of 6X (when I know the OG was reported to be 1.050) because the recipe I have I can't verify is the same as it started with in 1923 (its ABV was then about 6% then).

The "other" XXXX had dropped to an OG of 1.040 after WWI.

Ron Pattinson would categorise "XXXX" as an "old ale" not a "mild ale" like "XX". But Wadworth seemed different: Take Adnams 1921 XXXX, an "old ale" with bitterness calculated as IBU 42. Try Adnams 1918 XX* (just three years earlier in WWI) and IBUs are calculated as 18. Adnams XXXX was intended to be matured a while hence more hops to help keep it longer, otherwise the ingediants were the same (and quite similar to Wadworth XXXX) ... it was an "old ale". Now for Wadworth at that time; the calculated IBUs for "XX" is 22, and for "XXXX" it was ... 22 also. "XXXX" was just a stronger "XX"; it was a "Mild Ale" not an "Old Ale". In fact, 6X back then had a calculated IBU of 22, and that's not changed even now. More hops is not a defining feature of "not mild ale" but more hops were known to keep beers longer. Conclusion: 6X is a "Mild Ale" just like when it was first created. Some are not going to like that conclusion!

It's my belief (and I'm not the first) that many UK "bitters" morphed from wartime "Mild Ale". Where it happened seemed regional as there seemed to be a split in bitter "bitters" (IBU 35 and more) and not-very-bitter "bitters" (sub-IBU 30) as I moved around the country in my early drinking years (and I didn't like the bitter "Bitter" in some areas, like Yorkshire, compared to home in E.Midlands).


Note: "Mild Ale" had darkened in many cases by the war years, but were still "dark" as in "dark amber" in many cases ... the same colour as many "Bitters" by the 1970s. One "Mild Ale" I'm planning to brew (Courage 1914 X Ale) is exceptionally dark for the time, and even contains roast malt which was rare (for a mild ale).


[EDIT: * The 1918 Adnams XX is a really bad example (nasty weak!). I was probably comparing something else. The 1914 Adnams XX is a better example (Mild! book) OG 1.042 and IBU 23.]
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:27 am

PeeBee wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2023 1:51 pm
... [EDIT: * The 1918 Adnams XX is a really bad example (nasty weak!). ...
Yes it was! I don't think I researched this very deeply at all. The clue is I picked out "Adnams"; alphabetically the first example from that time I came across! And, well, I wasn't going to find any more XXXX from that time to back up my claims from Ron's Blog and books.

But the gist of it was right: XX is weaker (in alcohol) than XXXX (from an earlier pre-WWI period that is) and XXXX would have considerably more hops. And those with more hops kept better, and probably needed the extra time to moderate the bitterness. But Wadworth's XX had a calculated IBU of 22-25 (according to Ron P.), as did their XXXX ... as does 6X (various sources). Therefore ... as Wadworth XX is a "Mild Ale", Wadworth's XXXXs are a slightly stronger (in alcohol) version of XX but otherwise much the same (in the 1920s), and 6X was derived from the stronger version of XXXX ... therefore, 6X is a "Mild Ale"!

See this thread: Graham Wheeler’s Wadworth 6X recipe variations, especially the linked document authored by Brian Yorston.

This afternoon I'll put on the recipe for Wadworth XXXX (1922), working from Ron P.'s gleaned information >here<. A brew based on a pre-WWII version of 6X will be ready for drinking tomorrow. Spoiler: So far, the 6X tastes like a "Bitter" to me!
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Thu Jul 27, 2023 10:56 am

Wadworth's 1922 XXXX. Perhaps the precursor to the 6X recipe brewed earlier. Changed the yeast (MJ Empire Ale #M15) as the #M42 proved too attenuative (as does the #M15, but FG 1.015 ain't too shabby compared to the documented 1.020).
WadworthXXXX-1922-Day4.jpg
WadworthXXXX-1922-Day4.jpg (51.9 KiB) Viewed 153257 times
Still waiting for the 6X to come ready, that #M15 don't 'arf kick off some sulphur* (I'm still venting it off). Similar graph profiles for the two yeasts, including the "kick" at the start; but that's due to the initial buildup of yeast on the Tilt, I might be due to me just sprinkling the pack on the surface rather that "rehydrating" as I used to do. This #M15 did get going quicker though. Note "sprinkling" dry yeast directly on the surface is just as quick as "hydrating".

* (I'm working to the principle "it's better out than in". Always best to have a positive attitude to things not being what they should be!).


Plenty of on-subject (late 19th Century and 20th Century) recipes coming up - Ron P. has released his "Stout!" book which is due through me door soon. Here ... I hope all this free publicity gets me a signed copy?
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Wed Oct 11, 2023 5:08 pm

A pleasanter day yesterday in the mid-Autumn sun (it's peeing it down today). An attempt at Courage's 1914 "X" (crikes, I do need to hold that camera/phone a bit steadier):
20231010_152633_WEB.jpg
20231010_152633_WEB.jpg (241.74 KiB) Viewed 152996 times
Didn't quite go to plan ... the first attempt with "no-chill" cubes (in which this spent its first couple of days) created a bit of a problem predicting volumes (they ballooned out when hot). I finished with about 45 litres and only wanted 42. So this had OG of about 1.050 when 1.055 was intended.

Still, pretty strong compared to what has passed for "mild ale" for a very long time! And this was an early mild you could definitely describe as "dark". Not what I'd call outstanding. Guess I'll have to repeat it to give this copy a bit of a chance.

Sub-1PSI CO2 top pressure. Served from handpump through a sparkler, though the head has collapsed (serves me right, I was trying to show off, got everything prepared, and the phone decided to switch to video, which took the next five minutes to sort out). Sparklers are not usually my way, but I'm trying out a new "stout" sparkler I've put together with a builtin check valve (details at another time). Produces a heck of a head, quite inappropriate for a mild ale which shakes off such a pouncy topping in a couple of minutes. And no hesitation wondering if the beer in the nozzle is off since using the pump a day or two ago.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by Fr_Marc » Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:56 pm

PeeBee, I think you should have a look into the other other forum… :D

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/en ... t-10315079

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Wed Nov 22, 2023 5:36 pm

Fr_Marc wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:56 pm
PeeBee, I think you should have a look into the other other forum… :D

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/en ... t-10315079
Thanks very much.

Cor! ... They do get things twisted up a bit don't they! I'm not able to drop a response on that forum yet (I'm bit busy) and I haven't quite decided who's "friend or foe". But the interesting one is "Colindo", whom I think falls into the "foe" category. He isn't an American (it's an American site), he's from Germany: So, I can't be viewed as "knocking Americans" when I say, "they don't appear to have any concept of timeline". For example:
The first patent is from 1871 by Garton in Southampton.
This saccharum has hitherto been manufactured from cane sugar (commercially so called) by dissolving the sugar in Water and submitting the solution to the combined action of heat and acid, and afterward neutralizing it by chalk or other suitable material; after the solution has been decolorized and concentrated, saccharum is obtained in a merchantable form and ready for use for the purposes above mentioned.
In the invention he changes this process to using raw cane juice and applying heavy filtering at the end, arriving at the same product.

The second patent is from 1914 by the brother of Ragus' founder.
The usual method for making invert sugar, either for brewer's saccharums, golden syrup, imitation honey and such like substances also starch glucose, is to first act upon the raw material with acid and heat and then to neutralize and filter. After having done this, the liquid is decolourized by passing through charcoal.
Err ... Between 1871 and 1914 sugar refining changed markedly. What they are talking about in 1914 is quite different to what was talked about in 1871. Like a method for making invert sugar for Golden Syrup ... it wasn't "made" with invert sugar in 1871! (Golden Syrup was originally about reclaiming something edible from the molasses waste created by the early refining process).


Must say though: Can't say I properly understood the timelines when I started on this "sugar" caper.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Wed Nov 22, 2023 7:38 pm

You can see about when in this thread I had turned on stupid "caramelising" ideas for creating Invert Sugars/Syrups):

https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/vie ... 30#p862962

So, it was quite right in that off-site thread to have noticed I was changing my mind: Because I was!

At least I did change my mind and didn't continue with the daft idea that Brewers Invert sugars were "caramelised".
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by Fr_Marc » Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:37 pm

Colindo is an interesting peer, indeed. Yes, he is a fellow German. He may have studied in England though. He is very seriously committed regarding British Ales and Beers. Maybe you want to have a look into his youtube chanel "The British Pint" to get to know him a little bit better: https://www.youtube.com/@britishpint

I would suggest not seeing him as either friend or foe but rather as an interested (and maybe interesting) interlocutor. I invited him to this very forum, but he says that he is not able to log into any of the threads here but gets an error message instead. So you might want to think again about weighing in on the other forum...

Cheers! Fr. Marc

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Fri Nov 24, 2023 3:48 pm

Fr_Marc wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:37 pm
... I would suggest not seeing him as either friend or foe but rather as an interested (and maybe interesting) interlocutor. I invited him to this very forum, but he says that he is not able to log into any of the threads here but gets an error message instead. So you might want to think again about weighing in on the other forum...
No problem.

I would have to pay to post on that forum anyway. That is more than enough deterrent. (That's what is coming to THBF eventually - the UK forum that was bought out by an American).

I could slag him off on this thread ("Colindo" that is; in my eyes he's a bigoted pillock not an "interlocutor" ... I had to look that word up BTW!), but from reading his posts he only appears to read a few lines and makes up pages of conclusions from that. So, he'll never get around to reading this. He can read this forum BTW, he comments on it (what little snips he reads of it).

Do tell him for me, he really needs to try and understand the refining processes of sugar (and timelines) and things should start to fall in place. In particular, the ludicrous idea "Brewers Invert Sugar" was coloured by "caramelising". Caramelising must have certainly been used in early 20th Century (late 19th :-k ?) for those numerous unidentifiable propriety sugars, but not "Brewers Invert Sugar"!

At the start of using sugars in beer, "Brewers Invert Sugar" was a cheap and convenient way of introducing fermentables. The benefits and customer preferences came later (it must have, because sugar didn't remain a cheap way to introduce fermentables, yet it was still used).



He ("Colindo") criticises me for my "brown malt emulations" too. So, what does he use? Modern rotary kilned "brown malt" I suspect. Like that's close :-? !



S'cuse me. I'm not "shooting the messenger" BTW ... thanks :)
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by Fr_Marc » Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:30 pm

Thank you for not shooting me. It did feel a little bit like it, though.

PS: I had to look up the word „interlocutor“ myself. There must be a more common word for it, but it doesn‘t come to mind.

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Sun Dec 03, 2023 2:57 pm

A vital bit of information to keep in mind when brewing Ron Pattinson's historical recipes (by Ron Pattinson!):

Notes on my historic recipes - https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Beers (late 19th Century and 20th Century)

Post by PeeBee » Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:47 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 3:48 pm
... I would have to pay to post on that forum [www homebrewtalk com] anyway. That is more than enough deterrent. (That's what is coming to THBF eventually - the UK forum that was bought out by an American). ...
More cobblers from Peebee? Well, the "free" basic registration was all grey; greyed out? I assumed it wasn't a valid option. I can be pretty dozy at times! Or have I spent too much time on computers and failed to notice I was being "conditioned" for nefarious purposes? Selected the grey button, and off I go.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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