Refining a brew

[Matt]

Gents, can we just clear up the terms here. Sorry to be pedantic

'Racking' is what you guys are talking about - when you mean transferring to a secondary vessel via a hose.

'Dropping' is transferring to another vessel in the early stages of fermentation but done to deliberately introduce more oxygen, so-called because its done by opening the tap and letting it drop into the other vessel, like you do when filling the fv from your bv.

Matt

[hoppingMad]

Gents, can we just clear up the terms here. Sorry to be pedantic

not at all we are all still learning.

'Racking' is what you guys are talking about - when you mean transferring to a secondary vessel via a hose.

Yes.

'Dropping' is transferring to another vessel in the early stages of fermentation but done to deliberately introduce more oxygen, so-called because its done by opening the tap and letting it drop into the other vessel, like you do when filling the fv from your bv.

Matt

No. I think he is using the word "dropping" to mean racking. Oxygen should never be reintroduced to wort or beer once fermentation has started. When racking to another vessel, its important to do this without splashing or aerating in any way. The hose should be kept submerged at all times.

Dropping may also refer to what happens to suspended material in the beer, known as Particulate Matter ie break material, hop particles and other protein including haze. Dropping may refer to this material "settling out" to the bottom after fermentation and/or cold conditioning. The latter, has the effect of excellerating the dropping out of this material.

[shaunsm_uk]

I can supply the appropriate link to much of the above if you wish

If you can post a link that would be great, the more info I get one the subject the better, I do think this is going to turn into a lifelong hobby

[hoppingMad]

I should have been more specific: there are many topics above, let me know which one intrests you right now and I can post a link: Anyway here's a link to John Palmers online "How To Brew" which covers much of it.http://www.howtobrew.com/intro.html
For more specific and detailed info, say which topic...
EDIT: Here's a bit on yast Pitching rateshttp://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php
and Mr Malty's Pitching Rate Calculator http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html
a little on increasing body ( mouthfeel) http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter20-1.html
here's an interesting article on big hop flavour.http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.htm

[Matt]

Gents, can we just clear up the terms here. Sorry to be pedantic

not at all we are all still learning.

'Racking' is what you guys are talking about - when you mean transferring to a secondary vessel via a hose.

Yes.

'Dropping' is transferring to another vessel in the early stages of fermentation but done to deliberately introduce more oxygen, so-called because its done by opening the tap and letting it drop into the other vessel, like you do when filling the fv from your bv.

Matt

No. I think he is using the word "dropping" to mean racking. Oxygen should never be reintroduced to wort or beer once fermentation has started. When racking to another vessel, its important to do this without splashing or aerating in any way. The hose should be kept submerged at all times.

Dropping may also refer to what happens to suspended material in the beer, known as Particulate Matter ie break material, hop particles and other protein including haze. Dropping may refer to this material "settling out" to the bottom after fermentation and/or cold conditioning. The latter, has the effect of excellerating the dropping out of this material.

I wasn't asking for advice, I was clarifying the difference as the term 'dropping' was being used incorrectly

Dropping is a practise of re-introducing oxygen, as I noted above. Not that I would do it, but some do.

Matt

[Stonechat]

As far as I am concerned when I drop my beer into a secondary FV I am doing it to leave behind as much yeast slurry and trub as possible in the primary FV. This is done using syphon an taking as much care to exclude air from getting into the beer as possible.

I think using the term "to drop" in this way is valid. If it is not then Graham Wheeler may have to get the woman with the English degree at CAMRA to alter or cut out paragraph four of page 52, going onto page 53 of BYOBRAAH.

[hoppingMad]

Matt, my appologies. I read your post too quickly and misinterpreted pretty badly there. Just re-read it and it was clear enough. Must read more carefully in future.
Anyway, I've not come across the practise of re-introduction of oxygen before, in fact I have read only the contrary. I do not know the science behind oxidation myself but have seen it discussed elsewhere by many, many brewers. I'm like you, I wouldn't be doing it myself.

[shaunsm_uk]

For more specific and detailed info, say which topic...

Thanks for the links, they are going to make for some interesting reading, I'm sure I will find loads of info to improve my technique, will let u guys know how my next brew works out

[Northern Brewer]

There is plenty of discussion on dropping here... http://www.beerandloafing.org/hbd/searc ... t=dropping

Interestingly, it appears that if you study Wheeler's text, he only seems to recommend aeration with certain yeast strains.

This post indicates that Wheeler no longer advocates dropping at all... http://www.beerandloafing.org/hbd/fetch.php?id=69291

For my own part, I get the impression that some brewers, and in particular Brakspears, used aeration whilst dropping as a method of deliberately raising diacetyl levels. This isn't something I would personally aim to achieve.

[Matt]

Matt, my appologies. I read your post too quickly and misinterpreted pretty badly there. Just re-read it and it was clear enough. Must read more carefully in future.
Anyway, I've not come across the practise of re-introduction of oxygen before, in fact I have read only the contrary. I do not know the science behind oxidation myself but have seen it discussed elsewhere by many, many brewers. I'm like you, I wouldn't be doing it myself.

Hey HM, no worries, was just clarifying

[hoppingMad]

Reading those links raised the underpitching issue which is something I'm trying to avoid now by making decent starters for my liquid yeasts. I'm paying particular attention to an ale I intend brewing this week. Not being a huge fan of too warm a fermentation, I want to pitch well for a London Ale so I can primary at 18 C. This is made slightly more difficult because I'm propagating from frozen yeast and not yet too sure about how much to step up before pitching.
The main factors I'll be watching out for will be a good start to fermentation, a reasonably quick fermentation (week to 10 days max) and full attenuation. All pretty standard for warmer temps around 20-22 C but may need a slightly bigger starter for 18 C.

The Dropping technique discussed (links) seemed to suggest the practice was used in some cases to help fermentations which were likely to, or had, stalled due to underpitching, at least for homebrewers.

Thanks for educating me on a term I had not known about, and it was interesting to note that the practice is now not advocated by Wheeler.

[Madbrewer]

Just curiuos, Madbrewer, what do you base the comment "less chance you have of there being enough yeast ... " on ? Cheers.
HM.

Actually I can't remember where I have read it, but I have! It might have been a Graham Wheeler book or even a C. Papazian one. I think I have noticed it myself too though. If you are bottle conditioning - it's possible to (Rack/drop-without-adding-oxygen) the beer after alot of yeast has 'dropped' out of solution. Then if left too long, it's possible to subsequently bottle this 'clear' brew without enough yeast suspended in it to condition the brew. 6 weeks later you uncap the bottle, no satisfying hiss, & the beer tastes green and flat.

Regarding 'dropping' I was referring to racking and not adding Oxygen. I personaly don't know if Matt's totally correct on his terms, but I am certainly willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here . When you serve a clear beer it's "dropped bright" so I was referring to a beer the yeast has dropped out of, also whether or not the way I used the word 'drop' is a 'Wheelerism' or not, I couldn't say.

[Matt]

I promise I'm not making it up guys

Wiki entry on dropping

[inthedark]

I'm trying apply all of this information to my own brews. It appears that 'racking' from primary to a secondary FV has the (desirable) effect of leaving most of the trub, old yeast etc behind, but may not leave enough yeast in suspension for any further fermentation. Hence 'dropping' is no longer recommended by GW since it produces stuck fermentation.

Others rack to secondary so that they have clearer beer, but they also seem to be force carbonating as far as I can see.

I don't use force carbonation - will there be enough yeast left by doing this for conditioning/priming in a keg if I don't leave it too long? and how long is too long?

[Matt]

ITD,

If you rack to secondary vessel once fermentation has stopped there will still be enough yeast in suspension (although it may not look like it to the naked eye) to perform the conditioning in the keg, even after a week or so in secondary. I have left beers in secondary for 3 weeks with no trouble.