Brewing a Lager type beer with ale yeast

[bosium]

If you have the capability to cold store (lager) it down near zero C, then it will noticeably improve over the next few weeks as proteins and tannins drop out of the beer and it will taste more lager-like.

[Manx Guy]

Hi,

I've recenlty tried some bottled Kolsch and have to say I would struggle to tell it apart from some German lagers...

How easy is this to brew?
I've read that the grist is 2 Row Pale Malt/Lager malt 80-100% with wheat making up the remainder. Speciality malts can make up to 5% of the wheat if prefered.
Bitter to 25-30 IBU s with German noble varieties...

It seems though (andthis is my personal stumbling block) that yeast is key to a successful 'kolsch' However instead of me spending £6++ on a whitelabs kolsch eyast I may only use once - could I use Nottingham or US 05 ?? at a cooler 14-18C?
Then secondary at about 12C?

Would this be close enough to a Kolsch or just a clean hoppy ale ( which I guess is what I'm basically after....)

Many thanks!



Guy


PS sorry if I'm 'hijacking' this thread...

[EoinMag]

Hi,

I've recenlty tried some bottled Kolsch and have to say I would struggle to tell it apart from some German lagers...

How easy is this to brew?
I've read that the grist is 2 Row Pale Malt/Lager malt 80-100% with wheat making up the remainder. Speciality malts can make up to 5% of the wheat if prefered.
Bitter to 25-30 IBU s with German noble varieties...

It seems though (andthis is my personal stumbling block) that yeast is key to a successful 'kolsch' However instead of me spending £6++ on a whitelabs kolsch eyast I may only use once - could I use Nottingham or US 05 ?? at a cooler 14-18C?
Then secondary at about 12C?

Would this be close enough to a Kolsch or just a clean hoppy ale ( which I guess is what I'm basically after....)

Many thanks!



Guy


PS sorry if I'm 'hijacking' this thread...

Hi Guy,

Don't just use the yeast once. Take your activator pack and propogate a starter, then step the starter up and then again until you have a 4l starter of yeast, pour off the wort, then put it in a sterile jar in the fridge and make starters from that whenever you need to, within reason it's good for about 3-4 months just make starters from it each time, when it gets old throw it out and do the same with the cake from one of the brews you make with it, then you have that yeast in your own home primitive yeast bank.

Eoin

[raiderman]

I know where Chris is coming from and most folks wont know the difference or care but if you love good European lager then you must use a lager yeast, lots of it and temp control. I've made cream ales with US-05 and they've been pretty poor, the yeast flavour sticks out like a sore thumb.

I don't believe temp is as critical with lager as that. One of the reasons lagger was laagered was that they needed the time to help clear the beer, another was the inability to brew in summer because of the heat, so they had to store beer made in the winter somewhere cool through the spring and summer. I brew with a protein rest and get clear beer and no chill haze - Beyond standing the fermenting bin in the sink and resisting the wifes ire - whats the dishwasher for anyway! - which in this weather keeps the temp from getting too hot and a racing fermentation, I get good results with lager, using lager yeast. Even a recent batch which I thought a bit thin was excellent after a couple of months. For lager the hops have too be right, the beer does need to age longer than bitter, but the inability or in my case refusal to ferment and store beer in a fridge doesn't prevent a good lager being brewed.

[bosium]

I brew with a protein rest and get clear beer and no chill haze

May I ask what temperature your rest is at, and for how long? You really have no chill haze at all, not even at 2C or so?
Are your lagers all malt, or do you use corn or rice or sugar as an adjunct?

I've never ever had a beer completely devoid of chill haze, must be nice.

[leewink]

Ive used WLP 029 kolsch in several of my brews now, ive brewed a cross ale / lager, now im just about to brew a more kolsch style lager/pils, the yeast is a good allrounder for me, good with temp swings as i dont heat or cool the ferment, and ive used it right through the heatwave a month or so ago no probs.

My recipe has this in it, and ive called it simply cream corn kolsch :-

2500 g Pilsner malt
500 g Wheat malt
500 g pale crystal Malt
300 g flaked maize

28 g Hallertauer (start of boil)
56 g Saaz (last 15 min)

WLP 029 Kolsch

I use various clarifiers in mine too, polyclar, gelatine, kieselol* and isinglass, I bottle and only fridge it to chill it, no chill or protein haze and all the usual homebrew dusty or strange tastes removed, for a crisp finish.

cheers, lee

[raiderman]

[/quote]

May I ask what temperature your rest is at, and for how long? You really have no chill haze at all, not even at 2C or so?
Are your lagers all malt, or do you use corn or rice or sugar as an adjunct?

I've never ever had a beer completely devoid of chill haze, must be nice.[/quote]

I start with a 30m protien rest at 50c. I read some where that 55c might be preferable, so the batch I did at the weekend was at the highter temp, I'll see how it works out.

I'm not a fan of adjuncts aside from shredded wheat which I find gives a nice crisp flavour, more pronounced than malted wheat. For 5 gallons I either brew 3kg lager malt, around 150kg of carapils, and 1kg of either munich or vienna to add colour and flavour. No sugar, maize or rice. I sometimes add wheat malt, up to killo or above and that can give a haze

I don't over chill. We had a new german fridge when the kitchen got done and its pretty cold - milk your teeth notice when you sneak a sip from the bottle and I reckon half an hour chilling is just right, but when I leave a bottle in overnight its fine. I suppose the fridge is set at around 5c, going cooler might give haze, I've never felt the need to.

[bosium]

Fair enough, although I serve my lager at 2C so I'm not convinced that would work for me. I have read that a protein rest with the modified malts we use today is actually detrimental to the body and head retention of the beer, so I haven't used one.

I generally include 3% flaked unmalted barley in my recipes which helps with the foam stability hugely. I have chill haze when the beer gets around zero but I lager it out - it eventually all drops out, leaving crystal clear, chill-proof beer.

Each to their own I guess. I might experiment with a short protein rest on a future brew.

[lancsSteve]

Hi,

I've recenlty tried some bottled Kolsch and have to say I would struggle to tell it apart from some German lagers...

How easy is this to brew?

I brewed one and LOVED it - pale M.O. plus a little tiny bit of wheat and spalt hops - adapted a recipe from GW's European beers and some other reading.

How easy depends how easily you can maintain an in-between temp (mid-way between lagers at 8-10 and ales at 18-22) so 14-15c is typical fermentation for these using Kolsch yeast. Thankfully that's exactly the temp of my cellar in summer LOVELY beer - just finished the cornie though

[raiderman]

I have read that a protein rest with the modified malts we use today is actually detrimental to the body and head retention of the beer, so I haven't used one.

I have chill haze when the beer gets around zero but I lager it out - it eventually all drops out, leaving crystal clear, chill-proof beer.
.

Head retention has never been a big thing for me. I learned to drink in Bristol where bitter is almost flat, so even with lager I'm more concerned with controlling carbonation in the bottle than head. If the protien rest affects head I wouldn't notice. In terms of flavour I think it improves both body and flavour. Do you know why its meant to do the opposite?

In terms of laagering any lager improves with age and so thats no bad thing

[verno]

This is gonna be a dumb question, so excuse it but when does a protein rest occur? Does it happen post boil during the ferment as 50C or 55C seems high (or is that farenheit?

[lancsSteve]

This is gonna be a dumb question, so excuse it but when does a protein rest occur? Does it happen post boil during the ferment as 50C or 55C seems high (or is that farenheit?

It's part of the mashing schedule - instead of a single-step infusion mash at say 66 or 67C you have a protein rest at 50-55C and then raise the temperature to the diastatic activity rest at 66-67C then possibly raise the temp again to mash-out at 73C.

Some people step 50C (protein rest) > 60C (beta rest) > 70C (alpha rest). Beta-amylase and alpha-amylase have different levels of activity at different temperatures so by having a different time at either end you can make a maltier or a drier beer - the 65-67C temps are the mid point where both are active.

Other temperature steps are used - see http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14.html for more info on the process of mashing and styles of mashing (single-step infusion which is traditional for British, Multi-Step Infusion (common for European beers and lagers) and Decoction (historic method for under-modified barleys and still used by the dedicated).

[verno]

Wow, its quite complex. Thanks for the explanation and link.

[mattmacleod]

The Kolsch yeasts are particularly clean though. You be hard pushed to tell them apart from proper lagers IMO. WLP029 works very well -I've used it recently in both and a Kolsch and an Alt. As an aside, I reckon it would make a nice US IPA too.

Indeed, it does make a nice US IPA. I got a few gallons left from the 4th of July blowout. It appears to be fairly slow to attenuate, doesn't flocc very well either. On the up side, it's very clean yeast. For hoppy US styles, I think I'll stick with 007.

I believe it's so clean because it doesn't floc well. It stays in solution so long that it clears everything up and finishes nice and dry.

[raiderman]

Fair enough, although I serve my lager at 2C so I'm not convinced that would work for me. I have chill haze when the beer gets around zero but I lager it out - it eventually all drops out, leaving crystal clear, chill-proof beer.

Each to their own I guess. I might experiment with a short protein rest on a future brew.

I thought I'd test this practically. I put some of my last batch of lager in the fridge last night, which is set to 5c.. After 4hrs it was still perfectly clear, by this morning a slight haze had formed. This brew has 1.3kg of wheat malt, which may be a factor. The next batch of lager which only has 500g of wheat is still in the bucket and can't be tested! Within my operating parameters I am getting clear lager, but within yours a haze forms. Bearing in mind that the protein rest was developed to aid clearing it might still be worth giving it a try to see if it assists. The stage takes 30m and reduces the main mash time, so isn't that time consuming.