Priming - bottle/Keg/Mini Keg

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Aleman
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Re: Priming - bottle/Keg/Mini Keg

Post by Aleman » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:28 am

The formula for determining how much pressure of CO2 is required to give a certain volume of CO2 in a liquid at a given temperature is

Code: Select all

P=-16.6999-(0.0101059*T) + (0.00116512*(T*T))+(0.173354*(T*V)) + (4.24267*V)-(0.0684226*(V*V))

Where P = Pressure set on Regulator
      T = Temperature (in ºF)
      V = Desired Vols Of CO2
I'm not sure but I am fairly sure that I have the formula that shows how much CO2 is produced per gram of priming sugar somewhere (Although Steve probably has it as he will use it in his software).

I'm with Steve on this one, There is no difference between a beer force carbonated to 1.5 Vols of CO2 and one that is primed (Either naturally or with added sugar) to 1.5 Vols of C02. . . . Except Time. . . . a young beer that has been force carbed is inferior to a natural carbed beer (at the same level of carbonation usually meaning that the natural carbed beer is older), but at the same period in time (>#4 weeks) and at the same temperature there is little / no difference.

steve_flack

Re: Priming - bottle/Keg/Mini Keg

Post by steve_flack » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:09 am

Aleman wrote: (Although Steve probably has it as he will use it in his software).
The formula I use comes from here

http://www.geo.uu.nl/Research/Geochemis ... ansfer.pdf

cosy101

Re: Priming - bottle/Keg/Mini Keg

Post by cosy101 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:11 pm

fill the keg first, or find a small keg, leyland home brew or thrifty shopper (not a commercial link but info for the member) do mini casks £6 each hold 1 gallon, or a 20 pint cask. If you leave a lot of air within the cask it will ruin the beer. (you could expel the air with co2 as co2 is heavier than air, but thats almost force carbination if you dont release the pressure within the cask once you have expelled the air) then fill your bottles. I have noticed that bulk maturing (i use mini casks and firkins) does condition better than any bottle. The good thing about bottles is that you can have one at a time. Thats why i said condition in cask first then transfer to bottles. The beer will keep its condition and will continue to mature once in the bottle. again leave it for 2 weeks to re-gas/condition. You should not add primer/sugar as this will over condition.Hop back brewery bottle condition their beer and so do many others. I spoke with them and they give over a year shelf life using this method. It works, they use a yeast that creates balls of sediment rather than a film on the bottom of the bottle. but please dont leave a lot of air within the cask! good idea to split priming and not priming, you will see a lot of difference. Dont taste the beer after fermentation ( or if you do dont panic! it always tastes worse at this time)just bottle/cask and wait. Like most things given time your vinegar will become your prime beer. You will not buy shop beer ever agin! good luck. =D>

cosy101

Re: Priming - bottle/Keg/Mini Keg

Post by cosy101 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:20 pm

Aleman wrote:The formula for determining how much pressure of CO2 is required to give a certain volume of CO2 in a liquid at a given temperature is

Code: Select all

P=-16.6999-(0.0101059*T) + (0.00116512*(T*T))+(0.173354*(T*V)) + (4.24267*V)-(0.0684226*(V*V))

Where P = Pressure set on Regulator
      T = Temperature (in ºF)
      V = Desired Vols Of CO2
I'm not sure but I am fairly sure that I have the formula that shows how much CO2 is produced per gram of priming sugar somewhere (Although Steve probably has it as he will use it in his software).

I'm with Steve on this one, There is no difference between a beer force carbonated to 1.5 Vols of CO2 and one that is primed (Either naturally or with added sugar) to 1.5 Vols of C02. . . . Except Time. . . . a young beer that has been force carbed is inferior to a natural carbed beer (at the same level of carbonation usually meaning that the natural carbed beer is older), but at the same period in time (>#4 weeks) and at the same temperature there is little / no difference.

so what you are saying is that we should all force carbinate our beers as it does not matter how the beer is carbinated......... so i should carbinate with co2 as time is the only variant. Tell me why all commercial brewers dont do this? they could remove all yeast by filtering and force carbinate................ oh they do this already....... but bottled beer carbinated this way does not match natural carbination. So i would suggest that it does matter how the beer is carbinated, naturally allows the yeast to mellow the beer create better condition and extended shelf life due to continued conditioning. maybe i am wrong but adding a gas to a beer does not create better conditioning.

steve_flack

Re: Priming - bottle/Keg/Mini Keg

Post by steve_flack » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:28 pm

Carbonate has an 'O' in it....

Anyway, there is a more difference between the two styles of bottling than the carbonation method. Most force carbonated beers are also filtered and pasteurised which strips the beer of some of it's flavour. They also lack the antioxidant effect of the yeast so stalling can happen quicker. So there is a difference there. Is there a difference between beers that are bottled with their yeast but with just the carbonation method changed (primed, not primed, or had CO2 injected)? I would say no. The carbonation method makes no difference. Unfortunately, not many commercially force carbed beers are bottled without fitration/pasteurisation.

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Re: Priming - bottle/Keg/Mini Keg

Post by Aleman » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:08 pm

cosy101 wrote:so what you are saying is that we should all force carbinate our beers as it does not matter how the beer is carbinated......... so i should carbinate with co2 as time is the only variant. Tell me why all commercial brewers dont do this? they could remove all yeast by filtering and force carbinate................ oh they do this already....... but bottled beer carbinated this way does not match natural carbination. So i would suggest that it does matter how the beer is carbinated, naturally allows the yeast to mellow the beer create better condition and extended shelf life due to continued conditioning. maybe i am wrong but adding a gas to a beer does not create better conditioning.
No I am saying that how a beer is carbonated makes no difference to the amount of 'fizz' produced when you open a bottle . . . as that is all just physics. It is total bullshit that the CO2 produced by natural carbonation is in any way different to the CO2 from a gas bottle . . . as that is just chemistry. Yeast turn sugar into CO2 at a slow rate in the bottle . . . that is just biology. . . . if you add the same amount of CO2 into a bottle of flat beer as produced by fermentation of a given qty of sugar . . . and leave them for the same period of time, say 4-6 weeks, . . . you will be hard pressed to say (from the bubbles produced) which one was 'Naturally' carbonated.

I will accept that allowing the yeast to clean up after itself will improve the beer, and, in the long off, dim and distant past, this was done by casking the beer . . . transporting the casks to pubs, where they were vented and bottling took place a couple of days later once the level of condition had reduced in the beer. . . . What we can do today is rather than rack off into a cask when the beer is still fermenting is to actually wait and allow the yeast to clean up while still in the primary fermenter (10-14 days rather than 4 days), and then bottle. . . adding priming sugar of course.

I've done both methods with the same beer, and apart from one bottle of infected beer nobody spotted which beers has been bottled from my force carbonated corny and which had been bottled using primings. . . . Of course none of my beer is filtered or pasteurised ;)

alwilson

Re: Priming - bottle/Keg/Mini Keg

Post by alwilson » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:54 pm

Ignorant question coming up.

So, a Corny Keg needs CO2 injected, in order to propel the liquid out once the tap is opened, right?

Does that mean the CO2 goes in solution, creating a fizzy(er) beer? Also does the same apply to mini kegs? I like the transportability of Cornie's and Mini Kegs but dont want a fizzy beer.

If that is the case, can a mini keg be drilled and tapped? so gravity alone empties it?

thanks!
Alex

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Re: Priming - bottle/Keg/Mini Keg

Post by Aleman » Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:05 pm

alwilson wrote:a Corny Keg needs CO2 injected, in order to propel the liquid out once the tap is opened, right?
Correct
alwilson wrote:Does that mean the CO2 goes in solution, creating a fizzy(er) beer? Also does the same apply to mini kegs? I like the transportability of Cornie's and Mini Kegs but dont want a fizzy beer.
Not at all, the amount of CO2 that dissolves in the beer is a function of temperature and pressure (which applies to 'natural' carbonation as well - All to do with Henry's law and the ideal gas equation plus other physics/chemistry stuff). So if you want to server your beer with a 'cask ale' level of carbonation (~1.2 to 1.5 Vols of CO2) you set the regulator to the calculated pressure for the temperature you are serving / storing at and you will get you beer with that level of CO2 . . . Eventually . . . after the CO2 in the beer has reached equilibrium with the CO2 in the head space . . . . I'm currently serving a nice pale ale at 12C with 2.5psi on the keg and its coming out pretty much the same as cask beer under gravity dispense.

In order to reach that equilibrium faster you can shake the keg until the gas stops bubbling in, or crank up the pressure and shake for less time, then turn it down for dispense. I find the latter method to be pretty hit and miss so just allow around a week for the equilibrium to set itself up and then I enjoy the beer.

alwilson

Re: Priming - bottle/Keg/Mini Keg

Post by alwilson » Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:18 pm

Brilliant - so that week of 'kegging in' is that part of conditioning, or in addition to the 2 weeks of primed conditioning (or 4 of unprimed)

Alex

alwilson

Re: Priming - bottle/Keg/Mini Keg

Post by alwilson » Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:23 pm

in fact, Can I condition in a Corny?

steve_flack

Re: Priming - bottle/Keg/Mini Keg

Post by steve_flack » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:45 pm

Yes, you can. The main issue if you plan on priming or using 'natural' carbonation is that the lid is a bit leaky unless you've sealed it. A quick blast at 10 psi usually does the trick.

cosy101

Re: Priming - bottle/Keg/Mini Keg

Post by cosy101 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:17 pm

steve_flack wrote:Carbonate has an 'O' in it....

Anyway, there is a more difference between the two styles of bottling than the carbonation method. Most force carbonated beers are also filtered and pasteurised which strips the beer of some of it's flavour. They also lack the antioxidant effect of the yeast so stalling can happen quicker. So there is a difference there. Is there a difference between beers that are bottled with their yeast but with just the carbonation method changed (primed, not primed, or had CO2 injected)? I would say no. The carbonation method makes no difference. Unfortunately, not many commercially force carbed beers are bottled without fitration/pasteurisation.
yes my spelling is bad, much the same as your grammer..... please keep it civil.

Mattypower

Re: Priming - bottle/Keg/Mini Keg

Post by Mattypower » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:25 pm

When we bottle,! bottle conditioned ale @ work we add aux and cool the beer when the fermentation reaches 1010/1011 @ 20 deg cool the beer down to around 10 deg over 2 days, transfer the beer to a conditioning tank @ 8 deg for roughly 1-2 weeks, rack the amount of beer we need adding finings and then drop the beer out over night, you now have bright beer check the Present gravity we aim for 1008 @ 20 deg a little over is okay but if under we add organic sugar to make back up to 1008. 9 times out of 10 we usually manage without adding sugar. It normally takes 2-3 weeks for become conditioned however it tastes best after a couple of months even upto a year in the case of the strong gravity beers!!!!!!11

Mattypower

Re: Priming - bottle/Keg/Mini Keg

Post by Mattypower » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:36 pm

A good example of a cask ale that is primed is to the max is Timmy Taylors Landlord, its is a landlords worst nightmare to manage, very very lively, but once settled an absolute dream! a total contrast to what most do however they can get away with it as its a big name! most beers these days are designed to dop in 12-24 hrs unless the landlord is not happy!!!!!

steve_flack

Re: Priming - bottle/Keg/Mini Keg

Post by steve_flack » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:59 pm

cosy101 wrote:
steve_flack wrote:Carbonate has an 'O' in it....

Anyway, there is a more difference between the two styles of bottling than the carbonation method. Most force carbonated beers are also filtered and pasteurised which strips the beer of some of it's flavour. They also lack the antioxidant effect of the yeast so stalling can happen quicker. So there is a difference there. Is there a difference between beers that are bottled with their yeast but with just the carbonation method changed (primed, not primed, or had CO2 injected)? I would say no. The carbonation method makes no difference. Unfortunately, not many commercially force carbed beers are bottled without fitration/pasteurisation.
yes my spelling is bad, much the same as your grammer..... please keep it civil.
My grammar (it has an 'a') is fine....as is your's obviously as otherwise you'd be in a glass house chucking pebbles.

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