Tannin problem I cannot get rid of! help!

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Eric
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Re: Tannin problem I cannot get rid of! help!

Post by Eric » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:44 pm

fisherman wrote:I think the dosage is dead on for CRS , I would stop the gypsum and add 0.7grams of DLS per litre,Do you use a digital thermometer?,
With all respect, thinking something that can be measured is right without examination might just be the reason this problem has gone on for so long. Neither will changing sparge methods to something simpler, each system has it's own problems.
Thinking back to my early AG brews, pig's breakfasts in every sense of those words, in mash tun, boiler and FV produced beers free of twangs or the like. Up until then such tastes went hand in hand with my homebrewing, overcome by hiding bottles in cupboards for months on end, and their absence was the very reason I've never gone back.
I wouldn't for a second think to suggest you should brew as I first did, that would be quite stupid. It must be time to end guesswork and perhaps eradicate the possible water problem altogether by using an alternative.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

PureGuiness

Re: Tannin problem I cannot get rid of! help!

Post by PureGuiness » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:09 pm

Eric wrote:
fisherman wrote:I think the dosage is dead on for CRS , I would stop the gypsum and add 0.7grams of DLS per litre,Do you use a digital thermometer?,
With all respect, thinking something that can be measured is right without examination might just be the reason this problem has gone on for so long.
Although the fact the OP stated that the mash ph is 5.2 would back up the suggestion that the correct amount of CRS has been used would it not?

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Re: Tannin problem I cannot get rid of! help!

Post by WallyBrew » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:19 pm

norstar wrote: Water composition is (from memory):

Ca 93
Mg 2
Na 14.7
Carbonates 116
Sulphate 38
Chloride 27
Alkalinity 189 and hardness 232

Hence CRS usage. I wonder if the Alkalinity is actually higher. Would 40 points of alkalinity make that much difference to the sparge to leach tannins? ............
I refer you to part of my pm in response to your pm.........

Of course if the new fangled merged company (Sutton with East Surrey) was actually doing what you, I and all others in the area are paying for we would also have a low alkalinity. They are supposed to soften the water to about 60mg/L as calcium though think their website suggests 70. In the softening process they not only remove Ca (note that they do not exchange it for sodium) but also decrease the alkalinity. In the Cheam plant this is done using ion exchange and at Woodmansterne it is done using hydrated lime.

This would all be great if they actually did it!!!! We would have water with an alkalinity around 100 instead we get it with anything from 130 up to 240 depending on how they feel on the day. I am surprised that long term residents of the borough have not made noise about why their kettles are so furred up now and why taps have scale etc.

O.K. so you say you add 22.5 nL of CRS to 25L. This should be acceptable as long as they have not done a good job on the softening front at the treatment plant!

It is important with the way they treat our water that you check the alkalinity before treatment and MOST IMPORTANT test it after treatment to make sure you got it right. If the alkalinity is about 200 then the calcium content of the water will be about 90mg/L and as long as the alkalinity is down to about 25 then addition of gypsum to the mash is not a requirement.

Since you have treated the sparge water as well to a similar level of alkalinity (low) then the pH in the tun should remain within acceptable limits throughout the sparge. It is the rise in pH toward the end of sparging which may lead to extraction of polyphenols (tannins) and silicates. This may happen if you used untreated tap water.
Today that alkalinity is 160

The implication from your posts is that you are not checking the alkalinity of your water before treatment.

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Eric
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Re: Tannin problem I cannot get rid of! help!

Post by Eric » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:07 pm

PureGuiness wrote:
Eric wrote:
fisherman wrote:I think the dosage is dead on for CRS , I would stop the gypsum and add 0.7grams of DLS per litre,Do you use a digital thermometer?,
With all respect, thinking something that can be measured is right without examination might just be the reason this problem has gone on for so long.
Although the fact the OP stated that the mash ph is 5.2 would back up the suggestion that the correct amount of CRS has been used would it not?
On the surface yes, but recently I cocked up one and still got a pH reading of ~5.2. Then found I'd tested the wrong water and my mash water was slightly acidic which I quickly altered by adding a dose of hot alkaline water into the mash. If I'd found out and not corrected it I might have had more to add. Sounds hard to do I know, but the water here is so alkaline that it takes a lot of acid to adjust and I do a first test after a dose of CRS. Cutting a long story short, I treat my mash water separately for a quicker start but mixed up my test samples.

The water here is generally 200+ ppm CaCO3 and I will usually adjust it to around 20ppm. I will normally add 1ml CRS per litre of water as a starter, correcting after testing with untreated water or more CRS. You can see in my case it is easy to think you've used sufficient acid to remove 90% of the alkalinity when you've attempted to take out 110%. That's why I test afterwards, just need to test the right water.

Somehow I don't think this is the problem or the answer in this case, 15 brews and nearly always the same trouble. My early experience was more likely 15 brews and 20 different problems. This must be soul destroying.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

PureGuiness

Re: Tannin problem I cannot get rid of! help!

Post by PureGuiness » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:18 pm

Yes. My water usually starts off between 234 and 239 ppm CaCO3 and change my residual alkalinity target based on the recipe I am doing in order to balance the acidity of the grain being used.

I agree that I don't think this is the problem here. Someone else has tasted the beer and said that it is a little dry but there are no other problems with it. This suggests to me it's more a matter of taste than anything significantly wrong with the beer or the process. It could be a difficult one to crack if this is the case.

coatesg

Re: Tannin problem I cannot get rid of! help!

Post by coatesg » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:22 pm

It's not only the mash pH but the pH during the sparge that affects tannin extraction. If the pH rises significantly during the sparge you will extract tannins even if your mash is pH5.2. Though it is less likely if you treat all the liquor in one go.

What would I do?
I Assuming the water treatment is correct, I'd possibly change from Nottingham if dryness is really the issue, try using Windsor or a liquid yeast perhaps. I'd also be tempted to try a no sparge brew, or batch sparge to see if it goes away. Also, get the pitching temp down to 18 or so for a UK ale yeast.

Other avenues might be to try a local group (London Amateur Brewers) as there must be nearby brewers who have similar water. Maybe tag along for a brew say and see off there's anything obviously wrong?

norstar

Re: Tannin problem I cannot get rid of! help!

Post by norstar » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:06 pm

Really appreciate the responses guys.

Wallybrew is correct that I haven't tested the alkalinity before brewing, but I've checked with my pH strips and after treatment with CRS, my liquor is exactly pH 6.0 whereas it's 6.8 out the tap, so I wouldn't have thought it's the pH, although I hoped it was as it seemed a simple fix.

Looking back at my bad brews, the common factors seem to be brewing with the same equipment and the yeast, which is usually Nottingham. I have ruled out the former now as I used to use hosepipe, but since someone suggested that might do it, the last brew didn't use it. So if it's still bitter/astringent, then it's not that.

The hops have been various types, the grains have too. So if it isn't coming from the hosepipe, the last thing to try is, as many have suggested, water and a wholesale change.

So I will do a brew tomorrow before hosepipe ban D-day and use ASDA/Tesco water, and see what happens there. Shall report back! Thanks again. Glad I'm not missing anything obvious.

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Re: Tannin problem I cannot get rid of! help!

Post by Eric » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:54 pm

While pH values for brewing liquor are of little value, if those readings are right your tap water is already acidic, but wallybrew's very informative post suggests the more likely opposite.
If you've been using a plastic hose to supply your water, I'd be concerned in case it has coated your vessels if they are plastic too.
I can't imagine Nottingham yeast being a problem, too many people think highly of it.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

coatesg

Re: Tannin problem I cannot get rid of! help!

Post by coatesg » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:41 pm

Eric wrote:I can't imagine Nottingham yeast being a problem, too many people think highly of it.
But it does attenuate well - if you happen to be mashing low, then it will leave little body, though the gravity readings don't suggest so... A plastic hose should leave a clear off flavour if it is tainting - this should be detectable you would hope. Low pH sparge water tends to suggest tannins won't be an issue. The pH of my water from tap is well above 7 with similar alkainity and I don't suffer in that way.

Other than that, I'm a bit stumped!

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Re: Tannin problem I cannot get rid of! help!

Post by Deebee » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:54 am

Hmm could the whole idea be wrong. i mean we are assuming that its tanins. Could it be DMS?

OP can you maybe run through your procedure? do you use standard type equipment or have you a boiler that was used for non foodstuffs before?

Are you boiling with a lid on? partly on?

just some thoughts.
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Re: Tannin problem I cannot get rid of! help!

Post by gregorach » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:38 am

Deebee wrote:Hmm could the whole idea be wrong. i mean we are assuming that its tanins. Could it be DMS?
DMS is a completely different flavour.

It could always be infection though...
Cheers

Dunc

norstar

Re: Tannin problem I cannot get rid of! help!

Post by norstar » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:25 am

Hope I'm not boring anyone - but procedure is thus:

I have two modified Swan 20L boilers, both sparkling clean and descaled with a length of stainless steel brake hose in the bottom to filter, so for a single boiler brew which leaves me with about 14L at the end, I treat 28 litres of water with CRS as described, then heat it up, treating as described 30 mins before using. I sterilise my FV and all equip by soaking it overnight in VWP and/or household bleach diluted and for good measure, before I use the FV in anger, having rinsed it out three times or so, I chuck a kettle of boiling water in it to steam the little bacterial swine.

I mash in a coolbox (also sterilised as above perhaps pointlessly) which has a stainless steel hose as a filter, in this brew's case at 67-68 degrees for 1hr 15mins having checked and adjusted the temp with kettle boiled water if req'd and also having checked the pH. I run off (recirculate a few times first tho) through a short length of garden hose to avoid splashing into the boiler, and switch on. Grains start to look dry and I used to use a pierced garden hose to spray sparge liquor heated to 80deg max over them, keeping the grain bed afloat. I sparge down to no less than 1.010 but I usually collect what I need well before that is reached. I usually hit about 75% I think and hit the desired pre boil gravity, tho I was well short on the last one - perhaps due to the grain being older. The last brew saw me use a pierced lucozade bottle instead of the hose which sprayed like a beauty and removes the possibility of garden hose tainted flavour.

I then wait until the boil is gently rolling and take the scum off the top. I used to have one lid sitting across two boilers side by side to restrict evaporation as I lost so much, so half uncovered, but the last three brews I have brewed with the lid off completely.

I typically boil for 1hr 15mins adding 60mins hops and then whatever else is required. I have a stainless steel brake hose at the bottom leading into the swan boiler tap as a hop filter. When it's all done, I put the coil in about 10 mins before the end to sterilise, and cool rapidly down to about 25, or in the case of the last brew more like 20, and let it sit for 10 mins or so minimum for the hops etc to settle out. I'd already made a yeast starter, rehydrating as per the Danster instructions in a sterilised container.

I then run off slowly to keep the wort clear into my FV, bubbling it as much as poss to get O2 in. I pitch the yeast and then stick the FV (one of which has an airlock, one doesn't so I leave the lid not clipped down on one side slightly) into my modified fridge at 18-20 degrees.

The past three brews have seen the Danstar stuff go like a rocket.

I then leave it in the FV for about 10 days, then when I'm sure that the gravity is correct, I crash cool for about 3 days or so, and then transfer to a sterilised bucket (my coolbox as it happens, sterilised as above with VWP etc). I take about 100mls or so and heat it on a hob adding priming sugar, and I mix this into the wort from the FV before bottling into bottles I’ve sterilised in, you guessed it, VWP and/or bleach. I’ve also tried using the dishwasher on a hot cycle. No real difference between the bottles.

That’s it otherwise. Missus has gone to ASDA and reluctantly is picking up 28L of smart price water. My plan is to repeat last weeks brew using this stuff, untreated, and then pitch the wort onto the yeast cake from last week.

It's definitely a bitter astringent taste - the teabag analogy seems to sum it up for me. Infection? Not sure, but I don't think it gets worse with age. Better if anything.

After that, if it’s still the same, I’ll try new yeast.

After that, if anyone’s interested there’s two Swan boilers coming up for sale, two FV’s….!!!!!

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Re: Tannin problem I cannot get rid of! help!

Post by Eric » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:48 am

norstar wrote: I mash in a coolbox (also sterilised as above perhaps pointlessly) which has a stainless steel hose as a filter, in this brew's case at 67-68 degrees for 1hr 15mins having checked and adjusted the temp with kettle boiled water if req'd and also having checked the pH. I run off (recirculate a few times first tho) through a short length of garden hose to avoid splashing into the boiler, and switch on. Grains start to look dry and I used to use a pierced garden hose to spray sparge liquor heated to 80deg max over them
It's definitely a bitter astringent taste - the teabag analogy seems to sum it up for me. Infection? Not sure, but I don't think it gets worse with age. Better if anything.

After that, if it’s still the same, I’ll try new yeast.

After that, if anyone’s interested there’s two Swan boilers coming up for sale, two FV’s….!!!!!
Not bored, more concerned to know why.
Your set-up and process is a great deal better than mine was for years, possibly even yet, but I'd worry about garden hose with hot wort. Could you get some known stuff before making final judgement?
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

norstar

Re: Tannin problem I cannot get rid of! help!

Post by norstar » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:56 am

Nice of you to say! I like "things" and converting boilers etc is fun!

Used the hose because it was handy, and I use it to take the wort into the boiler to avoid splashing and hot side aeration.

I used the pierced hosepipe for fly sparging as it was simple and made a nice spray, evenly spreading the liquor over the grains.

After this many brews, you reckon it could still be contributing off flavours? It didn't for the Kolsch though which is what confuses me. Maybe worth trying though and using some food grade tubing instead.

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Re: Tannin problem I cannot get rid of! help!

Post by gregorach » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:09 pm

HSA is a myth as far as I can tell - or at least not nearly as much of a worry as many people seem to think. I run straight from my MT into my boiler with no hose on the tap and I certainly don't suffer from any of the problems alleged to be caused by HSA.

I certainly wouldn't want garden hose anywhere in a brewing rig (except for cleaning), especially anywhere hot.
Cheers

Dunc

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