mash ph high

[paulg]

yes I am coming to that conclusion too
the brew is fermenting nicely today with a good head krausen
I was just wondering if someone has tested the ph of crs as that would prove my papers good or bad as you state scooby crs is an acid so I too would have expected a lower ph reading than 5.4

[Eric]

We might be in danger here of confusing pH levels with alkalinity or acidity.
I've just taken 2 used pH indicator strips and dropped some CRS on one and placed the other under a dripping tap. The first instantly went vivid yellow and the other slowly changed to a dark green/blue spreading out from an initial central dot. Both these colours are the extremes of those on the associated chart and represent pH values of 4.0 and 7.0 respectively. I think it safe to say these are the extremes of their range and not a reliable measure of pH.
I tried first with used papers out of interest as well as a test on their resilience and was surprised and pleased with the result, especially considering your experience and the fact they are well over ten years old having spent at least the last year in the garage. Next, the one dosed with acid was placed under the dripping tap. After a short period, it too showed a central dot of dark blue that slowly expanded.
This was the first time of using the strip a second time.

[paulg]

so eric are you saying that crs turned your papers to the lowest ph colour available as I said mine gave a colour corresponding to 5.4 ph a sort of light coffee colour on my papers yellow being 4.8 and purple 6.4
if this is so it looks like it confirms my papers are damaged
I must order some more from the uk

[killer]

"It isnt the CRS lowering the pH. Its all about calcium. If you use salts in the mash you will buffer the mash pH therefore lowering it.
Try adding some calcium chloride flake and calcium sulphate, trust me this will lower your mash pH giving you a far better extract.
Its common myth that adding acid lowers the mash pH. Acid treatment is for flavour profiling and removing harshness."

This is actually a little misleading. CRS is better at lowering the pH of a solution than the addition of Calcium sulphate or Calcium chloride - also, using CRS generates Calcium sulphate and Calcium Chloride when added to "hard" water.

CRS is a mixture of Hydrochloric acid and sulphuric acid both of which are very strong acids. Carbonate/ Bicarbonate in the water keeps the pH above the ideal (around 5.3) and the more Carbonate in the water the more difficult it is to lower the pH.

The CRS removes Carbonate/Bicarbonate by converting it to Carbon dioxide gas and water, and the sulfate and chloride (negative ions) left over from the CRS form salts with Calcium or Magnesium (positive ions) in the water (2HCl + CaCO3 gives H2O + CaCl2 + CO2. H2SO4 has a similar reaction)
So Carbonate/ Bicarbonate buffers the pH of the water (i.e maintains it at a higher pH) and the acids remove it. The higher the alkalinity (which is really just a measure of carbonate/ bicarbonate) the more acid (as CRS) we need to add

With the carbonate/ bicarbonate gone, it is much easier to lower the pH - using salts if desired, and of course the mash itself undergoes reactions which lower the pH.

The reason the CRS doesn't seem to change a lot the pH initially is because it has to remove the carbonate/ bicarbonate.
If you took two solutions of distilled water and added CRS to one, and Calcium sulphate/ Calcium Chloride to the other. The pH of the CRS solution would be lower.

anyway, sorry for the rant. - but yes it is most likely your papers, and the CRS should most certainly drop your pH papers to their lowest value. You could test them again with lemon juice to confirm

[Eric]

so eric are you saying that crs turned your papers to the lowest ph colour available as I said mine gave a colour corresponding to 5.4 ph a sort of light coffee colour on my papers yellow being 4.8 and purple 6.4
if this is so it looks like it confirms my papers are damaged
I must order some more from the uk

Yes Paul. In the case with CRS, the change was virtually instantaneous from a sort of dirty mustard colour of about 5.4 to bright yellow, the lowest pH colour (4.0). With water the change took much longer but eventually took the highest pH colour (7.0).
My strips were obtained by a local pharmacist, they weren't cheap. With few left of a box of 100 or maybe a gross, it's likely they won't initially be replaced as measured pH values now are, for all practical purposes, as they should when treating brewing water in a like manner to the way you have for this brew.

[paulg]

thank you killer
I was talking purely about my paper giving 5.4 ph for crs as described by eric as dirty mustard, my papers did not go yellow when dipped in crs they were mustard corresponding to 5.4 on my scale (i expected more yellow ie more acid as per eric0
so once again thank you folks for your input it seems my papers may be past it ,new ones required then

[paulg]

just an update the brew hit its fg and sg and tastes just fine after 2 weeks in brew fridge at 14 degrees probably will get better in time just cleared in the last few days
did another brew today and got the same results with the same ph papers ,once again hit all the gravity calculations as per beersmith
I plan to put an order together for some grains and hops so will order papers and gypsum and calsium with them from the uk

[Scooby]

Thanks, let us know the results with the new papers when you get them.