TTL caramel-biscuit note

[JammyBStard]

I've never been sure when I'm tasting diacetyl. Is is that note that comes through strong in Scotch ales like Deuchars and 60' ? Or is that Fusel?

[Dr. Dextrin]

I've never been sure when I'm tasting diacetyl. Is is that note that comes through strong in Scotch ales like Deuchars and 60' ? Or is that Fusel?

I haven't tasted those beers for a while, so I'm not sure. I'd expect them to have enough to notice, given the style of beer, but probably mixed in with other malt and yeast flavours.

I think recognising diacetyl can be tricky and I'm not sure I'm all that good at it yet. For one thing, apparently some people can't taste it. It's also supposed to taste different at different concentrations (and maybe for different people) - and it gets described variously as like butter, popcorn, butterscotch, honey, etc. etc... I suspect it's one of those flavours that blends in, so it tends to taste different depending on what else is in the beer. More a sort of flavour-enhancer, almost.

One beer that I feel has a lot (although I could be wrong) is Greene King's Old Speckled Hen on draught. When it was brewed by Morland, the malt flavour in this was dry-tasting (drab and boring, like all Morland's beers IMHO). Now that GK brew it, it's gone too far the other way and tastes intense - sweet and almost honey-like. That honey-like taste is one I associate with certain Czech lagers that I think make a feature of diacetyl.

I think you can detect it in most British beers, but usually it's a good deal more subtle than in OSH and lacks the honey overtones. Mostly it tastes like caramel toffee (the creamy stuff you get in chocolate bars) or butterscotch to me. I've noticed that it's often largely absent in beers from the smaller breweries, though. I guess their processes differ from those used by the big boys and are more similar to what we do as homebrewers.

[JammyBStard]

The flavor I'm thinking of I'm very sensitive to. I'm really not keen and I do seem to taste it in a lot english brews. I've never had a OSH other than out of a bottle. I had a taste of 6X the other day and it was full of it; also I had some bottled black sheep brews once that were very heavy with it.

[Dr. Dextrin]

Yes, you'd probably notice it in 6X, although all Wadworths beers also have some other very distinct and quite strong yeast flavours, especially the cask versions. All the Black Sheep beers in bottles I'd say have quite a lot (it's the main thing missing from my clone recipes!).

[JammyBStard]

I think I'm with the Yanks on this one but I do tend to advise round here it's best to be got rid of, perhaps I should think twice.

[Dr. Dextrin]

Next time, ask how it was done and post the answers here.

[JonA]

I've been doing the same with fullers London pride. There are very good detail out there for this beer, including the exact recipe.

Do you have a link pls - google wasn't very friendly when I searched - apart from listing your post

[dave.wilton]

Listen to the ESB show on the brewing network. They talk to John Keeling about ESB and Pride. Here you will get the notes on fermentation and mash.
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/632

These are the notes I made:

Code: Select all

1047.8 to 1009

25EBC

35 IBU

calcium sulphate

mash 65C

no mash out

sparging starts, recirculate until bright

sparge 76

1hr boil. 7-8% evap

Target bittering

Northdown, challenger, goldings (10%)

whirlpool for 30 min. 

Pitch 17C. Allow to rise to 20. Hold until half gravity (about 30hrs). Chill to 17 hold until it hits 1/4 (1.012)and 1/5 gravity (1.009.6). Chill to 6 for two days. Pull off yeast and mature 10C for two weeks. Chill to -1 and hold for 1 week.

Here is my recipe, it came from the brewing network site linked to that show. There were issues with the IBU's, they don't match what John said. However, I've tried matching the IBU's and it was too bitter but this will depend on your system I guess.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/can-you ... de-179859/

Code: Select all

Recipe: London Pride
Brewer: 
Asst Brewer: 
Style: Special/Best/Premium Bitter
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 25.80 l
Post Boil Volume: 23.75 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 20.00 l   
Bottling Volume: 18.49 l
Estimated OG: 1.048 SG
Estimated Color: 8.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 25.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 79.9 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
4.11 kg               Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC)         Grain         1        94.9 %        
0.22 kg               Crystal 150EBC (5.9 EBC)                 Grain         2        5.1 %         
17.83 g               Target [11.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min         Hop           3        21.1 IBUs     
16.04 g               Challenger [7.50 %] - Boil 3.0 min       Hop           4        1.6 IBUs      
16.04 g               Northdown [8.50 %] - Boil 3.0 min        Hop           5        1.8 IBUs      
5.35 g                Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 3.0  Hop           6        0.4 IBUs

[super_simian]

...the caramel-biscuit note that you get in the real thing just wasn't there...

I haven't seen your recipe, obviously, but for the caramel flavor be sure to include a good percentage of medium-lovibond caramel/crystal malt and/or some brown sugar. For the biscuit flavor, consider biscuit malt or believe-it-or-not, some lightly toasted oats (from your kitchen: quick oats, rolled, flaked, Scotch, etc, will work.) A handful of oats in the mash generally improves the mouthfeel and appearance, too.

...boiling portions of the wort down to a syrup sounds like a lot of faff...

Perhaps you're right, but a much simplified way of doing this (which is more common at commercial breweries as well) is a longer boil. That's it. If you boil for, say, 90 minutes instead of the typical 45 or 60, you'll get some nice, rich, "kettle caramelization" which by definition will give your beer a more caramelly taste. This is true even if there was not "caramel malt" in the grainbill. A last caveat: don't add your hops at the beginning of the 90 minute boil unless you want to greatly increase the bitterness. Make sure to do your hop additions at 60 minutes remaining, 15 minutes remaining, and so on, as your recipe dictates.

Achieving any noticeable caramelisation or Maillard reactions in a full-volume boil would take a hell of a lot longer than an extra 30 minutes boil time, and I highly doubt TT spend 4+ hours boiling their wort. So that's out for achieving the authentic taste. And it's been said by many with inside information that Landlord uses no caramel malts, indeed no specialty malts or grains of any kind, and (perhaps apart from priming?) no sugars. So I reckon Dr Dextrin is most likely on the money here.

[seymour]

Fair enough. I'm no chemist and claim no knowledge of their commercial brewing practices, so I defer. For the record, I was suggesting some "try-at-home" methods for OP Dave S to consider in order to achieve the missing desired flavor profiles. I don't pretend to know exactly how TTL does it. That's a separate mystery I'm equally interested in...

You're absolutely right, time is money, and fuel/electricity/steam costs even more money, so of course no industrial scale brewer would perform a 4+ hour full wort boil. I agree that's a ridiculous notion. However, I insist from many, many real-life batches (including "apple-to-apples" comparisons) that a 90 minute boil departs MUCH more color and caramelly flavor than a 60 minute boil, especially with no bottom stirring. I'm sure it has a lot to do with my equipment setup. I use a tall, narrow boil kettle atop an extremely hot propane jet burner. The wort in contact with the bottom and lower sides of my pot get VERY, VERY caramelized.

[Dr. Dextrin]

Listen to the ESB show on the brewing network. They talk to John Keeling about ESB and Pride. Here you will get the notes on fermentation and mash.
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/632

Probably this information is fine, but bear in mind that brewers aren't always straightforward when it comes to giving away recipe information. For example, my efforts to clone Black Sheep Riggwelter have led me to believe that the recipe given in the Brewing Network interview is largely fiction.

Dave S is correct. Wyeast 1469 "West Yorkshire Ale" is the true Timothy Taylor strain. White Labs WLP037 "Yorkshire Square" is actually the Black Sheep strain, perhaps originally derived from Theakstons. Despite sharing the word "Yorkshire" in their brand names, they are technically different strains. Very similar English ale characteristics, though, so mark4newman I don't doubt for a second you achieved the desired taste profile.

According to my notes from the Riggwelter interview, the Black Sheep yeast (the same for all their beers) originally came from Hardy & Hansons. I've no idea whether it's the same as WLP037, though.

[dave.wilton]

According to my notes from the Riggwelter interview, the Black Sheep yeast (the same for all their beers) originally came from Hardy & Hansons. I've no idea whether it's the same as WLP037, though.

Yes it did, my dad used to work for H&H and I remember when I was young being given a tour of the black sheep brewery.

I'm reasonably confident about that fullers recipe on the brewing network. The grain bill is good although I'd say the hops need work. The detail given by John on the hops wasn't that accurate.

[seymour]

According to my notes from the Riggwelter interview, the Black Sheep yeast (the same for all their beers) originally came from Hardy & Hansons...

Yes it did, my dad used to work for H&H and I remember when I was young being given a tour of the black sheep brewery...

Excellent clarification. Thanks, guys!

[JonA]

Listen to the ESB show on the brewing network. They talk to John Keeling about ESB and Pride. Here you will get the notes on fermentation and mash.
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/632

These are the notes I made:...............

Thank you - very useful information. I will give that recipe a go next week.

[dave.wilton]

Thank you - very useful information. I will give that recipe a go next week.

Be sure to follow the fermentation profile to get the diacytly if you can. You might find it is too much, but then you can start and play with it the next time. I
Pitch a 1L starter, which if I remember rightly is half what mr malty recommended