Taste my beer

[greenxpaddy]

Do you check on the fermentation a lot? if you do, don't. Open for the first time after a week!

[dedken]

As the co-beer ruiner I'd describe it as cidery, quite bitter with a complete loss of all malt flavour and hop aroma. It also has an almost earthy quality.

Cidery - do you mean 'green apple'? Could just be down to the beer being young. However, loss of all malt flavour and aroma sounds like oxidation to me (cardboardy, sherry-like flavours??). Anyway, your mate is sending me one so I'll have a taste and see what I can identify and see if there is a problem, how we rectify it.

Do you check on the fermentation a lot? if you do, don't. Open for the first time after a week!

I always do for taking samples etc. Shouldn't be a problem if yr at high krausen. CO2 is heavier than air so that protective layer ain't going anywhere unless you deliberately waft it away. You will find that plenty of people including professional brewers, ferment in open vessels.

[seymour]

As the co-beer ruiner I'd describe it as cidery, quite bitter with a complete loss of all malt flavour and hop aroma. It also has an almost earthy quality.

This tells me you're probably mashing at too low a temperature and/or for too long, leading to extremely high efficiencies. On one hand, congratulations for getting the most fermentable sugars out of your grainbill, but the trade-off is that you're stripping much of the body and complexity that comes from more difficult-to-ferment starches and sugars. The yeast consumes everything you've got, leaving no "maltiness" behind, leading to a thin body and too hops-bitter balance. Using too much adjunct sugar will do the same thing (corn, cane sugar, etc.)

Also, fermenting too warm will definitely create some hot, fusel alcohols that some people describe as cidery or solventy, especially when applied to simple sugars. Sounds like you've got a very advanced fermentation temperature control setup, just dial your targets down a bit.

I agree with the others: most of what you're both describing could be explained by unhealthy yeast or too small a cell-count.

And dedken is exactly right about the acetaldehyde and what to do about it.

So in review, try:
1. raising your mash temp a couple degrees and 60 minutes total
2. lower your fermentation temperature
3. ensure large healthy yeast population
4. leave the beer on the yeast longer after primary fermentation to reduce acetaldehyde

Read the beer fault PDF I linked earlier and see if anything else resonates, too.

[greenxpaddy]

As the co-beer ruiner I'd describe it as cidery, quite bitter with a complete loss of all malt flavour and hop aroma. It also has an almost earthy quality.

Cidery - do you mean 'green apple'? Could just be down to the beer being young. However, loss of all malt flavour and aroma sounds like oxidation to me (cardboardy, sherry-like flavours??). Anyway, your mate is sending me one so I'll have a taste and see what I can identify and see if there is a problem, how we rectify it.

Do you check on the fermentation a lot? if you do, don't. Open for the first time after a week!

I always do for taking samples etc. Shouldn't be a problem if yr at high krausen. CO2 is heavier than air so that protective layer ain't going anywhere unless you deliberately waft it away. You will find that plenty of people including professional brewers, ferment in open vessels.

Commercially open fermenters for only 3 days then into sealed conditioning tanks....

If fermentation has stopped and you are opening and prodding you will get oxidised infected beer before you know it

[Matt12398]

I don't think it's mash temp. Always at 67 degrees and only ever lose a tiny bit of temp by end of mash. Efficiencies are in fact a bit on the low side.

Fermentation temp shouldn't really be it unless the STC on the brew fridge is massively wrongly calibrated. Ferment at 19 deg for two weeks.

Can't be because it's green because those flavours are still there weeks after bottling. Flavours are not there out of the fermenter so wonder why it's developing.

Yeast may be right. The next two batches have been with Wyeast and one tasted fantastic out of the fermenter gassed up using a carbonation cap on a bottle. Now kegged and trying it again this weekend. The other will be kegged this weekend.

Anyway I've hijacked Lee's thread. Thanks for your help guys.

Hopefully Dedken can shed some light.

[kebabman]

Matt12398 wrote: It also has an almost earthy quality

You can get an earthy aroma from fuggles hops, so using a different hop would eliminate the possibility that they are part of the problem.

[mark4newman]

Hi

IMHO you need to measure the temp in the fermenter. Many people , just take the temp in the fridge, however the fementation can give off a lot of heat, and when I have measured this is can be 5C to 6C, at the hight of the ferment.

Also I think you probably have two problems

1) I think you may well be underpitching/oxygenating you beer. So it is stopping too early and you are getting this "apple" flavour.

2) I think you may well have Acetobacter infection, giving the vinegar.

So, make sure your pitch and oxygenate properly, with Temp control (Try a lower temp). Also give everything a really good soak in Starsan.

[gnutz2]

If everything is clean then i'd calibrate you temp probes in the MT and your fridge, and as suggested put the temp probe in the beer, dont leave it hanging in the fridge (i use a thermowell for this).

If yeast is underpitched and fermentation temps are high it can make some nasty beer

[Matt12398]

Underpitching could well be the problem. Both of the off brews were made using rehydrated SA-04. They fired off quite quickly though but I'm not sure if that means anything.

Regarding fridge temp, the probe is taped to the fermenter surrounded by insulation. Admittedly not as good as being in the liquid itself but should be much better than dangling in the air.

We've been scratching our heads for a while. I think, rightly or wrongly, that if it was a temp issue then you would detect it in the beer out of the fermenter and would be present then rather than developing in the bottle which leads me to think it's acetobacter or some other infection.

FYI since these issues we've switched from Videne to Starsan. Could be that the Videne wasn't made up strong enough but had been fine before that.

[mark4newman]

Hi

Well in that case, I'm pretty sure it is acetobacter. This can give off apples as well as vinegar.

I would therefore recommend, giving everything a good overnight soak in Starsan, (if your water is hard, then you need to use a slighlty higher dose)

BTW, make sure you give the bottles a good clean. When they are clean, I run them through the dish washer at the highest temp, and then fill the with starsan.

[Belter]

Really appreciate all your responses guys. I'll get some beer off to Dedken and Alix this weekend in the hope they can pin point the cause. We'll find out if liquid yeast is the answer this weekend. All the beers attenuated correctly but part of me still thinks it's a yeast issue. Part of me thinks sanitation is the issue.

[Andy]

Do you always ferment in a temp controlled fridge ?
Can you give details of your FV e.g. stainless/plastic, homemade/bought, tap fitted etc.
Do you ferment under airlock ?


(trying to work out if there could be sources of infection in your FV. Fridges are bug-traps and so you need to be careful fermenting in them)

[Matt12398]

The first off-tasting one was not, the second was. We put the first one down to being temperature but when the second one tasted the same/similar we thought it was less likely that it was temperature.

Plastic, bought, no tap fitted, blow-off tube into liquid filled bottle with campden tablets. The blow off didn't create the greatest of seals on the one in the fridge because there wasn't a lot of space above the FV meaning the pipe was bent over, distorting the grommet it fits into and then affecting the seal around the tube.

[mark4newman]

Hi

Do you use a bottling bucket? Could this be the source?

[Belter]

Hi

Do you use a bottling bucket? Could this be the source?

Yes and yes