Oh Dear.... Can I save the day for brew # 3?

Get advice on making beer from raw ingredients (malt, hops, water and yeast)
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orlando
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Re: Oh Dear.... Can I save the day for brew # 3?

Post by orlando » Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:28 am

molehill wrote:
Its once fermentaion is underway that I struggle. I am still a little unsure when it comes to transfering to secondary FV and bottling. Let me explain my process and please advise if I have misunderstood the process.

1. Once brew is complete the FV is placed in my beer fridge and temp maintained at 21c for 5 days. No finings added at any time now (made that mistake last brew).
2. I transfer to a secondary FV for 3 days then bottle using a bottling stick. All necessary sterilising carefully followed.
3. Place bottles back into beer fridge and leave for 7 days at 21c to encourage final yeast and carbonisation to occur. Then store at 10-12c for 3 weeks before first tasting.

I am still to work out how to safely carry out AG readings between 2nd FV and bottling. I seal the FV tap in a clean plastic bag and rap it tight with elastic band to reduce tap contamination and only use this at bottling stage. I am worried about removing lid and scooping out a sample for testing. Maybe I am being too careful. I am also worried that my bottling method may leave any settled sediment too loose making it difficult to pour.

Again thanks for your advice.
Basically your process is fine and will work 10 times out of 10 and give you perfect beer over time. Don't worry about being too careful when it comes to sanitation. The most important thing in brewing bar none is sanitation. Get that wrong and the perfect brewday, recipe etc is ruined. Taking a sample at any stage is simple, follow the usual sanitation procedures and use either a "wine thief" or even a Turkey baster, you can measure the sample to check progress, just don't return the sample to the fermentor or any subsequent vessel.

However, there are opportunities to refine your process a little. The amount of time a brew needs to ferment is not determined by the calendar. Recipe, yeast, temperature and technique will all have an influence on this so your ability to track the fermentation is important. There has been a few threads concerning transferring the brew to a vessel other than the fermentor and the way in which the vessels have been labelled has caused a little confusion. Current thinking is that there is no benefit to transferring your brew to another vessel until the fermentation is completely finished, the so called secondary. This is not the moment that the brew reaches its theoretical finishing gravity as yeast needs time to clear up some of the "off flavours" that can be produced during fermentation. The rule of thumb is 3 consecutive readings the same over 3 days. Removing the brew from the yeast before the fermentation is finished can cause a number of problems, not least is higher attenuation and clearing problems. At this point racking off to another vessel for either bottling immediately from or for further conditioning is a very useful stage to include. At this point you can decide to use finings to accelerate clearing but if your patient enough it will clear over time. This is also the stage when the most efficient and safest form of priming takes place, by introducing a syrup form of sugar at this point you can ensure an even mix of the right amount.

One final comment on your sanitation, I find it useful to have something like a bottle garden sprayer filled with a no-rinse sanitiser to spray things like your bottling tap a few minutes before using.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

brodington

Re: Oh Dear.... Can I save the day for brew # 3?

Post by brodington » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:37 am

I take my daily hydro readings from a sample out of the tap on the FV.

I also use a bottling bucket as it saves time and gives better mix of priming sugars.

Bring the geek I am I have a graph of gravity vs time on each brew sheet so that I can see how well my ferment is going.
I add a new point to this with each daily reading. This has helped me understand the fermentation process a lot.
It becomes clear (to me) each stage of the ferment by looking at a graph of it.

I'll happily email you my brew sheet so you can try it yourself. Pm your address if you want it.

EDIT:

Link to brew sheet:

http://db.tt/W4TBkfvK
Last edited by brodington on Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

molehill

Re: Oh Dear.... Can I save the day for brew # 3?

Post by molehill » Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:23 pm

Orlando, Thanks a lot for the informative explanation on fermentation/bottling. I am beginning to see a clearer picture now. Unless

I have misundestood...... Leave in FV until hydrometer reading remains static for 3 days. Then transfer to the secondary FV (bottling bucket) at which time a syrup type sugar is introduced and the wort added without allowing air to the batch. Then bottled straight away...... I think?

I was hoping to get down to the shops today to purchase a turkey baster (great tip there by the way) but now plan to get it tomorrow.

Hi Brodington..... Thanks for your response and I have PM'ed my contact details. A question...... What sanitising precautions do you take to prevent contamination if you are taking readings via you tap on a daily basis? All sounds a bit risky to me.

darkonnis

Re: Oh Dear.... Can I save the day for brew # 3?

Post by darkonnis » Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:28 pm

this is what I do, it is by no means THE BEST or THE ONLY way of doing it but it serves me well enough.
1. Ferment for 10 - 14 days
2. Ensure fermentation is complete with a hydrometer
3. Crash cool (I set temp to 4c and wait 24 hours before stage 4 & 5 - I count my 24 hours from when I set the fridge to 4c, not when it has already chilled to 4c)
4. Temp will be about 4c, there or there abouts
5. transfer to bottling bucket
6. boil some sugar down to prime with and prime
7. stir and wait 30 minutes
8. bottle
9. store at room temp for a week
10. ready to go :) age according to your tastes.

This gives me the smallest amount of yeast in the bottom without waiting too long or putting forth too much effort.
cheers,
cooky

molehill

Re: Oh Dear.... Can I save the day for brew # 3?

Post by molehill » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:44 pm

Thanks a million Cooky. I plan to follow your procedure, which is idiot proof for a numb nuts like me!

A couple of points I would appreciate you clarifying please.

1. What type of sugar do you prime with?
2. What do you consider room temperature for storing th finished bottles?
3. I am wondering whether it would be easier to tip the prepared priming sugar into the bottling bucket first, so it mixes as the brew is transfered, rather than stiring in after..... My thinking is less stiring, less risk of aerating.
4. I assume you crash drop temperature to 4c is for all beer types, as I read about this proceedure for lager.
5. If I am reading your bullet points correctly, I can expect to drink my first bottle of beer around 4 weeks after placing it in the FV.
6. Would it make any difference with the type of yeast used. I am currently using Nottingham dry.

I bought a nice turkey baster today so will feel much more comfortable when taking AG readings.

Thanks again =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

molehill

Re: Oh Dear.... Can I save the day for brew # 3?

Post by molehill » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:05 pm

molehill wrote:Thanks a million Cooky. I plan to follow your procedure, which is idiot proof for a numb nuts like me!

A couple of points I would appreciate you clarifying please.

1. What type of sugar do you prime with?
2. What do you consider room temperature for storing th finished bottles?
3. I am wondering whether it would be easier to tip the prepared priming sugar into the bottling bucket first, so it mixes as the brew is transfered, rather than stiring in after..... My thinking is less stiring, less risk of aerating.
4. I assume you crash drop temperature to 4c is for all beer types, as I read about this proceedure for lager.
5. If I am reading your bullet points correctly, I can expect to drink my first bottle of beer around 4 weeks after placing it in the FV.
6. Would it make any difference with the type of yeast used. I am currently using Nottingham dry.

I bought a nice turkey baster today so will feel much more comfortable when taking AG readings.

Thanks again =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
I set my beer fridge to 4c today with a plan to prime and bottle tomorrow. I really would appreciate some opinions/views/suggestions from you more experienced brewers before I get started.

Tanks

Martin G

Re: Oh Dear.... Can I save the day for brew # 3?

Post by Martin G » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:58 pm

I worried lots about the procedures when I started and am much more chilled out now, amazing how forgiving beer is sometimes, seems to work out fine even when you are sure you've made a mistake and agonised about it. Here are my thoughts about your questions for what they are worth;

1. You can prime with normal white sugar, inverted, dried malt extract, honey, syrup or what ever you like really. Sugar is normally the easiest and it will be a tiny part of the overall flavour. Whichever you choose it is normal to boil about 50-80g (for 20-23l) up with 200-300ml water for about 10mins and then add to the bottling bucket, not massively important to cool it right down since the first litre of 4C wort will deal with it.
2. 20ish centigrade, think the main point here is not in a fridge, at least to start with for a week or so. You are just trying to get the yeast fermenting again, having just been sent dormant by the low temp.
3. I'd put the syrup in the bucket first, it takes more than you'd think for the sugar solution to mix with the beer.
4. Lots of people cool all beer for a day or two before racking to cask, keg or bottle. Lager is held low for longer.
5. Depends on the strength of the beer, stronger takes longer. I'd say 2 - 6 weeks for beers less than 5%, it could be clear within a few days if crash cooled but will take time to become carbonated and mature.
6. Yes, but in combination with water used/recipie/temperature/pitching rate/oxygenation and probably a hundred other factors! I know a micro that uses Nottingham and has beer out in 2-3 weeks, mash to bar.

I'm sure others will point out if any of that is a million miles off, but like I say, it is amazing how many things you can do 'wrong' and it still work!

UKTony

Re: Oh Dear.... Can I save the day for brew # 3?

Post by UKTony » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:22 pm

1. Once brew is complete the FV is placed in my beer fridge and temp maintained at 21c for 5 days. No finings added at any time now (made that mistake last brew).
2. I transfer to a secondary FV for 3 days then bottle using a bottling stick. All necessary sterilising carefully followed.
3. Place bottles back into beer fridge and leave for 7 days at 21c to encourage final yeast and carbonisation to occur. Then store at 10-12c for 3 weeks before first tasting.
Personally I'd leave in the FV for at least 2 weeks to ferment then cool until the beer is clear. Then transfer to primed bottling bucket and bottle straight away or better still use an auto syphon with a bottling stick straight from the first FV and skip the priming.

molehill

Re: Oh Dear.... Can I save the day for brew # 3?

Post by molehill » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:27 pm

Just to let you guy's know. I did the following with my priming and bottling.

1. Foolwoing 12 days in the FV and after a 24 hour chilling at 4c, I transfered the brew to my bottling bucket.
2. I added 60gms of cane sugar to 200mls of boiling water and boiled for 1o minutes.
3. Poured sugar solution into bottling bucket allowed to cool then transfered brew for FV.
4. Lightly stirred and left for 30 minutes.
5. Bottled 44 bottles.
6. tasted the dregs of green beer and was really pleased with the flavour.
7. So much so that I poured the very last dregs and drank that too. Thats when I discovered that the dregs was a little sweeter. Which tells me I did not stir sufficiently.
8. I guess I was worried that stiring may add unwanted air?

All in all I am sure this will be the best of three brews made, although brew two was very nice. I invited my 80 year neighbour in for a taster of brew two and he started sluring half way through his drink..... Not bad since he used to own his own pub and he couldn't stop complimenting everything about appearance and flavour!

Love it!

Thanks again for your advice and support...... Now what shall I brew next? My first pint of real ale, some 30 years ago was a pint of Harvey's Sussex best bitter and would love to produce something of similar quality!

darkonnis

Re: Oh Dear.... Can I save the day for brew # 3?

Post by darkonnis » Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:04 pm

Sorry I didn't get back to you I've been/still am rushed off my feet.

Don't be afraid to give it a good stir, just dont splash it. If you see what i mean? Stirring doesnt introduce air, air only gets in if you start sloshing it about the place.
I crash cool with all beer type because i want the yeast out as much as i can.
4 weeks there or there abouts yes
No yeast doesn't matter. The exception to this rule is when you do lager, or high gravity beers. Then you may need to leave the fv a bit longer but other than that continue as normal.

The reason you boil the sugar is to prevent contaminants. I know sugar itself lasts forever in granular form but as you're introducing it to a liquid medium which is great for bacteria, better to boil the shit out of it and be sure there aint nothing living in it rather than toss away what was perfectly good beer. (ask me how i know)

I wouldn't be worried about the sweetness in the bottom of the FV to be honest, if it was rot your teeth sweet then you have a major issue, if it was just a bit, nought to worry about :)

Cooky

molehill

Re: Oh Dear.... Can I save the day for brew # 3?

Post by molehill » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:46 pm

Thanks Cooky

Rick_UK

Re: Oh Dear.... Can I save the day for brew # 3?

Post by Rick_UK » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:08 am

Regarding your last question your process sounds fine. It's not essential to leave in the bottling bucket for 3 days but if you do leave it somewhere cool as it helps clear the beer before bottling.

Good idea wrapping the tap to keep ot sterile!

Rick

Rick_UK

Re: Oh Dear.... Can I save the day for brew # 3?

Post by Rick_UK » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:23 am

Regarding your last question your process sounds fine. It's not essential to leave in the bottling bucket for 3 days but if you do leave it somewhere cool as it helps clear the beer before bottling.

Good idea wrapping the tap to keep ot sterile!

Rick

molehill

Re: Oh Dear.... Can I save the day for brew # 3?

Post by molehill » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:41 am

The result of this brew was a little disappointing..... my fault. I was wondering whether it was still salvageable? I finished up adding 60gms to the bottling vessel but I didn't give it a good enough stir and I wonder whether I added sufficient sugar. The end result was clear flat beer! Would it be worth pouring back into a bottling vessel and adding more sugar?

Please advise a dumb arse novice. :oops:

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7201
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: Oh Dear.... Can I save the day for brew # 3?

Post by orlando » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:33 am

You could do, and if the beer is on the point of throwing it away otherwise I definitely would, what do you have to lose? If you were very timid with the stirring, as your post suggests, then you at least now know where the problem originated from. Oxidation is a real problem, I have had it happen to me with a kegged beer so know that it can affect a brew. However, this happened towards the end of drinking it so for 3/4's of the beer it was perfect. What I'm getting at is that in the timescales that our beer generally lasts it rarely becomes a problem unless you are splashing it around like a clown in the circus. If we are talking about very high gravity beers that need conditioning for 6-12 months this is a very real issue,otherwise Cooky's advice about a good stir without splashing is the approach to take.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

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