Identifying my problem...

[9squirrels]

Never been a smoker, so it can't be that.

Here's the recipe from my latest batch, which is based loosely on a summer ale recipe in Randy Mosher's "Radical Brewing".

2kg maris otter / 1.5kg lager malt / 250g wheat malt / 250g demerara sugar
60 minute mash at 66 degrees, mash out at 75, single batch sparge at 75

90 minute boil
25g Challenger (60 mins)
15g Challenger (30 mins)
15g Challenger (5 mins)
15g Saaz (5 mins)

Size: 21L
Yeast: S-04
Water treatment: GW calculator set to "sweet pale ale"


I was looking through my notes over the weekend, and there was actually one beer during this period that turned out OK, with no trace of the offending off-flavour.
The only thing I did differently for that batch was to split it in half and ferment in two 15L fermenters (so I could experiment with adding honey to one half). Both were roughly 11L, but I couldn't be bothered to work out the yeast, so I just pitched a whole pack of S-04 into each fermenter.
Not sure what, if anything, that proves though...

[9squirrels]

Oops, put the sugar in the wrong place there. It went in the boil, not the mash.

[fisherman]

Do you test for alkalinity with a salifert test kit?. And if you do do you use DLS or weighed out individual minerals for additions. Also I have found in my water making my calcium target a maximum of 140 works well. To much gypsum makes my beer sharp,but if I use a bigger ratio of calcium chloride it make a sweeter malty pleasant beer.
Good luck

[9squirrels]

Yes, I test with a salifert kit on a fairly regular basis. My water doesn't seem to vary much. Always changes colour within the first few drops. Usually works out at 11mg, which I know is very low. The sulphate-chloride ratio is the one part of GW's water treatment calculator I haven't messed around with yet, so maybe I'll give that a go. Cheers for the suggestion!

[fisherman]

For a mellow malt flavour I have used sweet pale ale water treatment on Grahams water calculator with great results.

[9squirrels]

That's just what I thought! I used the "sweet pale ale" setting for my latest batch, so I was hoping that might do the trick, especially with such a light grain bill. No such luck though.

Think I might do a couple of mini-mashes and try experimenting with adding more calcium carbonate.
Despite what the ph strips say, I still get the feeling that my problem is that the mash ph is too low, due to all the water treatment additions.

[InsideEdge]

Hi,

Most of my beers have been made with very soft Birmingham water (Severn Trent), I didnt have off tastes and you should be able to make great pale ales with minimal water additions. Just up the calcium a bit, I'm talking 1tsp of gypsum and 1 tsp of calc chloride into both the mash and boil. No more than that and you could do less. To be honest I never found that water treatments really effected my beer one way or the other but it is hard to tell brewing different recipes all the time.

In your case it might be a stubborn lingering infection somewhere resistant somehow to your Starsan treatments. Or parhaps your own tastebuds, it is interesting that nobody else has really picked up your off taste. I would try and get another homebrewer or beer drinker to try some for you. Don't rely on the mrs, mine thinks all beer tastes of metal, lol.

So as a way forward I would try bottled water (ashbeck seems to be recommended) with some modest gypsum and calcium chloride additions to bump up the calcium levels. Perhaps, buy a new plastic fermenting bucket as it may be something is lingering here. But also try and get some second opionions on your beer.

Good luck!

[9squirrels]

Cheers. It's good to see someone putting what I'm thinking into writing!
I know you're right about the water treatment. I should be able to make perfectly decent pale ales without much tinkering. That's what's so frustrating though. My latest batch in particular is about as pale as a pale ale can get, and it still doesn't taste right.

Then there are a couple of anomalies that are really throwing me.
Firstly, a lager I did recently, which is darker than the pale ale if anything, worked out OK with a minimum of water treatment.
Secondly, the one successful batch of ale I've produced in recent months (the split batch mentioned above) had no water treatment whatsoever.
To my mind at least, that suggests that water isn't the problem.

I've also had the off-flavour from three different fermenters (one was brand new at the time and another was a corny keg), so I don't think that's to blame either. Do you think there could be an infection coming from my fermenting fridge? Or possibly my immersion chiller. They're the only things I haven't tried changing.

[oneilldave]

Hmmm ... read the whole thread, and lots of good ideas.

My turn, I suppose, if it helps:

1. Have you tried tasting the water output from your boiler and/or sparger combination before it goes into the ingredients? Your taste buds are good detectors and maybe you could use them on the raw ingredients to see if anything has the makings of the flavour you don't like?

2. What about doing a no ingredient run through, water only? That is, you mash plain water then sparge it, you boil the water, then you cool the water, and at each stage taste it see if the flavour is there. Won't cost you anything and you may identify where it's coming from.

3. What type of immersion chiller are you using? Does it have any welds on it that are old and possibly leaching metallics into the brew?

4. Do all your brews have sugar in them? There have been reports that sugar can add a harsh taste - okay, that's a bit straw clutching, but it's always worth asking.

Hope you find the root cause.

Dave.

[9squirrels]

Interesting. I've never tried tasting the water going into the mash tun. I always taste the runnings and wort, but they're so sugary it would probably mask any off flavours. Hmmm. Might have a go at a water-only brew. Cheers for the suggestion!

The immersion chiller is a standard copper tube affair. Seems unlikely to be the problem really. Just clutching at straws…
And I don't usually add sugar. It's just that this particular recipe called for it.

[fisherman]

Did you start any long term medication during this period, I have to take about 12 tablets a day and some tablets do take taste away and introduce sour tastes rather than bitter.

[9squirrels]

Nope, no medication either. Can't think of anything I've changed to be honest...

Anyway, I've just loaded up with bottled water from Tesco (got some funny looks and had to explain to the cashier that, no, I wouldn't be making any Carling!), so I might redo my latest batch with that tomorrow, see if it makes a difference.

[mabrungard]

I expect that the culprit is most likely excessive mineralization of the brewing water. Unfortunately, there are resources that recommend far too high levels of ions in brewing water (especially chloride). When high sulfate is desired in a beer like a PA, chloride MUST be at very modest level. You can see that even in a super high sulfate water like Burton, the chloride is under 60 ppm. Any calculator that recommends a high chloride level along with a high sulfate level, should be considered with caution. My experience is that high sulfate with high chloride is the recipe for minerally beer.

If the goal is sweetness, then the primary focus should be to keep sulfate very low and keep the chloride at 150 ppm or less. The Bru'n Water software has much more modest water profile recommendations that will let the beer "do the talking" instead of the water. If a sweeter pale ale is desired, 100 ppm sulfate and 50 to 60 ppm chloride is quite pleasant. A nice drying PA profile elevates sulfate to 300 ppm while still keeping chloride under 60 ppm.

[Eric]

Nothing immediately comes to mind for your problem, but excessive mineralisation is probably one to forget. I see you live on this island's watershed, probably within 20 miles of where your water fell as rain. You measure alkalinity to be barely present, so it is improbable your brewing water contains any measurable quantity of minerals more than what you care to add. I would think your water supply is unlikely to be remotely similar to almost any found in the inhabited parts of large continental land masses where rivers of several hundred miles length drain immense areas, or where ground water has not been replenished since the end of the last ice age.

If all your equipment is food safe, you must suspect infection. Despite many fearing that chlorine based sanitisers will spoil beer, my contention is firmly to the contrary. It costs very little for a bottle of cheap bleach and unless you spill it on good clothing, it does no harm once rinsed away. Worth a try?

[mabrungard]

Good points Eric, however a description of the water treatments and targeted ion levels was not mentioned. So I'm curious how you picked up that excessive mineralization was not the problem? All it takes are a few shakes of the mineral addition to go from OK to not OK.

Another potential cause could be iron or manganese in the water. The very soft water could still be quite subject to dissolving other metal ions since the Ca, Mg, or alkalinity are low. Acidic water conditions (like rain water) is easily able to dissolve other metal ions from any rock or soil.