wort chiller essential or not??

[Jimmy321]

I have been chilling my wort in the bath of late, water temp has been around 3-5°C and it takes about an hour with a stir every 15mins or so on a 4-5 gallon batch so I currently think I don't need one. I intend only to brew in the winter months but would consider a wort cooler if I change my mind.

[mark4newman]

Hi

How to you get the boiler into the bath. I would be very very worried about lifting 4-5 gallons of near boiling wort?

[Capped]

i must disagree mate , youll never attain total consistancy through no chill cube, no problems if you just do the beer once or brew for alcohol but if you brew for quality it is. it is proven that the colour, bitterness, aroma and haze potential can vary wildly in beer that isnt quickly chilled. you certainly wont get bad beer with no chill ,if you know what your doing, but research backs up you'll get better beer with an efficient chilling system

Weird how this subject has the power to divide folk (unnecessarily!) Saying that crash-cooling is "proven" to do this and do that is like all those global warming nuts saying that their computer models say such and such so it must be real even if the effects aren't visible etc. I've spent 30-odd years brewing,and always trying to make the next one better than it's predecessor - as we should all strive to do! - even if the last one was a perfect 10. Honestly critch, do you think I'd chuck 30 years of experience ( and a rather natty CFC!) in the bin if I thought I hadn't hit upon an obviously far superior way of doing things? Much of that is down to time restraints and personal circumstance etc but believe me, if quality suffered in the most microscopic way I'd be knocking up another CFC tomorrow.

[Dave S]

Hi

How to you get the boiler into the bath. I would be very very worried about lifting 4-5 gallons of near boiling wort?

Used to be the prescribed way in th' old days, 20+ years ago - not the boiler of course but the FV.

[Jimmy321]

Hi

How to you get the boiler into the bath. I would be very very worried about lifting 4-5 gallons of near boiling wort?

Hi

With great difficulty, although leaving it plugged in and switched on can provide a bit of a buzz

[gnutz2]

Hi

How to you get the boiler into the bath?

I normally tell her she smells, this then leaves me alone to drink more homebrew

[critch]

[quote="Capped"]
Weird how this subject has the power to divide folk (unnecessarily!) Saying that crash-cooling is "proven" to do this and do that is like all those global warming nuts saying that their computer models say such and such so it must be real even if the effects aren't visible etc. quote]
im not arguing mate and i can back it up with scientificly proven empirical evidence (btw we seem to have been brewing for a similar timescale )

in malting and brewing science(hough, briggs and stevens, first published 71, my edition is an 86 reprint, a very well regarded and much used book within the brewing industry) chapter 14 chemistry of wort boiling and chapter 15 methods of wort boiling , it repeatedly states that an efficient and fast chilling system is essential to drop the most protein and nitrogen out of the solution to gaurd against haze, maillard reactions changing colour over a 8 hour period ill have to dig out which books i read about the hops in, watch this space , before plate chillers cool ships where employed (before them earthenware drinking vessels so you couldnt see how muddy and unclear the beer was!)

undoubtably if your cube is chilling the beer down within a couple of hours these the mailard reaction will be limited, but you wont be knocking all the nitrogen and protein you could out by a more efficient chilling system and there would be an effect where a lot of the hop flavour would be destroyed.(oxygenated hop flavour compounds are much more detectable in beer than deoxygenated, 0.3ppm to 4 ppm noticable flavour threshold)

[Eric]

I wonder if it is possible that another problem can mask proven benefits from chilling?

[critch]

hell dont get me wrong eric no chill cube brewing obviously works, otherwise our esteemed fellow forumees wouldnt do it, but forced chilling works better.......

[Rick_UK]

Interesting discussion - thanks for the science Critch but this just makes me more confused as to why I get the same chill haze with and without forced cooling. How quickley and to what temp do you need to get it too to achieve the best results? I got mine down to 25ish in about 20 mins and as stated earlier no effect on clarity or chill haze.

Maybe its less of an issue for small 5G homebrews??

[Capped]

im not arguing mate ....

Me neither - I hope we're all pals on here ! I ain't kidding tho' about improved clearing times and sparkling clarity which so far seems to withstand any amount of time in the fridge. I don't get it either but s'true. Until now I've never made a beer that could resist a chill haze eventually. It's just occurred to me that I've also recently switched from ****** malt to Muntons, which I've found to be most agreeable in every aspect. Um,what the hell is a mailard reaction ?

[jonnyt]

Something to do with a Duck I think.

[critch]

no problems here dear boy

Um,what the hell is a mailard reaction ?

its when some one tells you your beers donald ducked

a maillard reaction(s) is a nonenzymatic browning process that can bugger up a lovely pale alehttp://www.food-info.net/uk/colour/maillard.htm


rick
last years malt harvest was very poor, chris garret(warminsters head maltster) told me its got the highest nitrogen content of ANY grain theyve ever processed which just cannot be good for haze potential!

chilling isnt the be all and end all with haze a vigourous boil is equally if not more important to precipatate the protien that forms nearly 70% of hazes, water chemistry and how the grains been malted and what type of grain it is ,is massively important too(research identified a common barley albumin as a predominate constituent of most hazes). theres a million and one variables if you go into it, my advice is to use good 2 row from a predominately brewing not distalling maltsters give a good boil give a good chill, as your not filtering an imersion chiller is probably better, use quality ingredients and careful proceedures check your water chemistry and keep on brewing, the fresher the beer, the less haze you get, store it for months itll taste better(unless you uber dry hop )imo but the trade off is a little haze out the fridge keep it in there a day or so it should drop

[seymour]

...this just makes me more confused as to why I get the same chill haze with and without forced cooling...

The answer is yeast selection. Let's say you employ swift wort chilling to drop all the proteins, nitrogen, etc, but then ferment with a dodgy flocculator such as US-05/Chico which is infamous for chill haze even after commercial-grade filtration...in that case, we're no longer talking about the relative effects of chilling.

Put it to the test: use a chiller, and an extremely flocculent yeast strain and see what you think.

[gnutz2]

...this just makes me more confused as to why I get the same chill haze with and without forced cooling...

The answer is yeast selection. Let's say you employ swift wort chilling to drop all the proteins, nitrogen, etc, but then ferment with a dodgy flocculator such as US-05/Chico which is infamous for chill haze even after commercial-grade filtration...in that case, we're no longer talking about the relative effects of chilling.

Put it to the test: use a chiller, and an extremely flocculent yeast strain and see what you think.

Funny you mention that Seymour, did a 50l batch last Friday, cooled it quickly with an IM. I split the batch 25l with s-04 and 25l with notty, both very good floccers.

Both yeasts dropped to the bottom about 3 days ago, but both beers still have a haze. Now this is really confusing for me because in the past I've used both yeasts and they are very high flocculating yeast especially notty. I've had notty drop and go star bright in a week no broblem.

The only difference in my system now is I don't leave the boiler so settle while the IM is cooling, instead I pump the wort around the boiler in a whirlpool which has the knock on effect of disturbing all the cold break.

This is very frustrating for me as I'm unable to make clear beer even with the high flocculating yeast, the only thing I can do is go back to my old methods on the next batch.

Meanwhile I'll leave this batch another week (max), if its still not clear ill fine with isinglass which always works.