Carbonation moves sediment?

[BrannigansLove]

Could you explain why allowing the yeast to drop twice will get the beer any clearer than allowing it to drop once? Assuming keeping the beer in primary for 3 weeks, against a 1 week primary, 2 week secondary approach, to me it seems that the main drivers are the yeast involved, the time allowed for gravity to work it's magic, the temperature at which your beer is stored (cold crashing), and whether any fining agents are used.

I prefer to just stick with the primary as I feel that it involves less work for me, reduces the risk of oxidation or infection on transfer, and delivers a level of clarity that I'm happy with.

[IPA]

Could you explain why allowing the yeast to drop twice will get the beer any clearer than allowing it to drop once? Assuming keeping the beer in primary for 3 weeks, against a 1 week primary, 2 week secondary approach, to me it seems that the main drivers are the yeast involved, the time allowed for gravity to work it's magic, the temperature at which your beer is stored (cold crashing), and whether any fining agents are used.

I prefer to just stick with the primary as I feel that it involves less work for me, reduces the risk of oxidation or infection on transfer, and delivers a level of clarity that I'm happy with.

How does the yeast deposit in your bottles compare with this.



This beer is bottle conditioned and the only yeast deposit is that opaque film on the bottom of the bottle. Turn one of yours upside down and post the picture. If you don't have any in a clear bottle next time you brew fill just one clear bottle with a pale beer and let us see how it compares.

[McMullan]

The yeast cake, which settles on top of trub in the primary, is not an inert slurry. It contains metabolically active yeast cells that coflocculate with premature flocculators (older OR dysfunctional cells). If beer is left on the yeast for 2-3 weeks (which I do regularly, TBH), yeast and trub debris ‘erupts’ periodically from the cake, likely due to metabolic activity. This resuspends some of the trub and yeast. This phenomena does not occur in a secondary. Beer packaged from a primary is likely to contain more old and/or dysfunctional yeast cells and more trub debris, both of which can mask the subtle qualities of beer, especially bottled beer.

[rpt]

This is the first time anyone has explained how a secondary can possibly help beer to clear. Has anyone ever done a genuine comparison of using a secondary compared to primary only?

[stokie_spaceman]

Is it feasible to assume that the physical movement of the beer into secondary causes suspended yeast cells to collide and stick together, thus promoting settling through increased mass? A primitive orthokinetic flocculation if you like.

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[McMullan]

Is it feasible to assume that the physical movement of the beer into secondary causes suspended yeast cells to collide and stick together, thus promoting settling through increased mass? A primitive orthokinetic flocculation if you like.

Yes, I think that's a reasonable assumption. I suspect other factors are involved too, though. E.g. mutated cells with impaired flocculation behaviour.

[BrannigansLove]

The yeast cake, which settles on top of trub in the primary, is not an inert slurry. It contains metabolically active yeast cells that coflocculate with premature flocculators (older OR dysfunctional cells). If beer is left on the yeast for 2-3 weeks (which I do regularly, TBH), yeast and trub debris ‘erupts’ periodically from the cake, likely due to metabolic activity. This resuspends some of the trub and yeast. This phenomena does not occur in a secondary. Beer packaged from a primary is likely to contain more old and/or dysfunctional yeast cells and more trub debris, both of which can mask the subtle qualities of beer, especially bottled beer.

Thank you for the explanation, I'm still a little sceptical (why does it not behave in the same way in secondary?), but I can certainly appreciate that secondary'ed beer may contain a greater proportion of young yeast cells and that may have an effect on the taste of the beer.

[McMullan]

why does it not behave in the same way in secondary?

Less biomass, compare what remains in the bottom of a primary with what remains in a secondary. It's like kg vs g!

[BrannigansLove]

why does it not behave in the same way in secondary?

Less biomass, compare what remains in the bottom of a primary with what remains in a secondary. It's like kg vs g!

So the process still occurs, but due to the reduced trub layer in secondary, less crap is kicked up, and the results are less noticeable?

[McMullan]

I haven’t observed this phenomena in a secondary. Any CO2 produced in the very thin layer of trub that settles on the bottom of a secondary seems to be released without carrying any noticeable debris. Just the occasional bubble. The deep layer of trub in a primary traps gas until the pockets get big enough to erupt out of the cake, carrying very noticeable amounts of trub, often to the top of the beer. This can be occurring up to the end of week 3, even if the temperature is lowered.

[orlando]

I haven’t observed this phenomena in a secondary. Any CO2 produced in the very thin layer of trub that settles on the bottom of a secondary seems to be released without carrying any noticeable debris. Just the occasional bubble. The deep layer of trub in a primary traps gas until the pockets get big enough to erupt out of the cake, carrying very noticeable amounts of trub, often to the top of the beer. This can be occurring up to the end of week 3, even if the temperature is lowered.

You can see this on some YouTube videos where the brewer is using glass Carboys, bit like watching a 70's Lava Lamp. One example for you. Best watched with the terrible music muted.

[f00b4r]

But of a thread revival (it has been linked from another) but does this mean a secondary is pointless if kegging, surely a keg will effectively act as a secondary and discarding that first half pint gets rid of that last bit of yeast and trub?

[IPA]

Racking to a secondary is overlooked these days.

Definitely, for my "Hoppier" batches I'm going to transfer to secondary from now on. I don't mind a bit of haze but when the whole cake in the bottle disintegrates into the glass it's not ideal when others try my beer...

Listen to what McMullen is saying! There should be hardly any visible yeast in the bottle let alone a "cake".Review your brewing procedure. Ferment in vessel 1 until 3/4 degrees above expected FG. Transfer to vessel 2 and ferment out. Finally transfer to vessel 3 then bulk prime and bottle/keg. To quote Graysalchemy
"If you want bright beer coming out you have to have bright beer going in" I can turn my bottled beer upside without seeing any sediment.

[McMullan]

But of a thread revival (it has been linked from another) but does this mean a secondary is pointless if kegging, surely a keg will effectively act as a secondary and discarding that first half pint gets rid of that last bit of yeast and trub?

If you have the time and space to use a secondary prior to kegging, you could drink the first half pint The beer would travel well in the keg too

[TheSumOfAllBeers]

If you keg and refrigerate, and apply gelatin, you will get really bright beer once you dump the first pint or two. And much less risk of bugs or O2 pickup from secondary transfers.