Water adjustments for the mountains

[Eric]

I would suggest you again read the notes with Graham's calculator, but particularly Note 5 onwards and especially from the sixth paragraph of that note starting with "If you are producing a target water from scratch."

There is great diversity of opinion of brewing liquor treatment, probably because of its multifaceted influence. If changing the level of one component only influenced one aspect then there might be a concensus, but we all have personal preferences when it comes to consuming beer. I therefore suggest you develop your own profiles.

My water is quite the opposite of yours, very hard and very alkaline needing significant treatment. After prolonged rainy periods it can be heavily diluted, but never be classified as soft. Even so, salts are added, not only to balance flavouring ions, but ensuring sufficient calcium at every stage to produce bright flavoursome beers from the cask with a good head when lightly carbonated.

While mashing at an acceptable pH is vital, it is not the be-all and end-all of brewing, something I think is frequently overlooked. Using your water untreated to mash the beers you mention would likely result in a mash pH greater than 6.0 (apart from any with quite a lot of crystal malt) to produce a moderate beer. Raising the calcium to 100ppm or more would get the pH into the right region, but also the extra calcium will protect enzymes in the mash and deposit many unwanted products in the mash tun and boiler to produce a cleaner and more quickly drinkable beer with lots of taste. With less calcium the same mash pH could be achieved by reducing alkalinity, but the finished beer would taste different and take longer to clear. Of course all of this ignors the influences of particular ingredients and the yeast's characteristics.

My advice is to try all profiles and make up your own mind for I don't know what satisfies your taste buds. I would however advise starting with more than 100ppm calcium.

[Bunglebrewsbeer]

Just got my water tested recently and these were the results I got back.


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[Jim my]

Where can I find Grahames calculator please? When I click on the link in the 'stickies' thread it just comes up with page not found.

[Eric]

Just got my water tested recently and these were the results I got back.

Did they not suggest you use CRS/AMS to lower that alkalinity?

Have you measured alkalinity and if so does Murphy's findings compare with yours?

[Bunglebrewsbeer]

No idea what I'm doing. That's the results I got back from Murphys. The advised what to add for certain beer styles. That pic advises DLS 24g per 25l for Pale ales.


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[Eric]

No idea what I'm doing. That's the results I got back from Murphys. The advised what to add for certain beer styles. That pic advises DLS 24g per 25l for Pale ales.


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OK. Basically your water should be adjusted to suit the grains you mash.

Calcium plays a vital and most influential part, but what it does depends significantly upon the form that component takes. Calcium in an alkaline form will raise mash pH and act as a stabilizing buffer, but too much of this component will cause pH to be high and spoil the beer. Any alkaline form of calcium that reaches the boiler will at the start of the boil start dropping out to play no further roll.

Calcium in other forms, generally gypsum and calcium chloride, help enzymes survive the environment of the mash tun, reduce mash pH and deposit with some of the ingredients your beer would be better without. That which gets to the boiler and fermenter do such things as assist break to form and deposit and yeast to quickly flocculate well. Meanwhile the sulphates and chlorides will influence the drinker's perception of flavours from the ingredients.

Murphy advise alkalinity levels between 20 and 60 ppm as CaCO3 are acceptable, but your beers will be better with alkalinity near the lesser amount. The only way to achieve this with any certainty is by measuring alkalinity every time you brew, but Murphy cover themselves for variation in alkalinity with time by allowing a larger amount and covering it with extra calcium. This is not to say you shouldn't follow their recommendations, but should seriously consider buying a Salifert kit to measure alkalinity (less than £10) to measure alkalinity to then consider using acid getting it to a lesser level. Meanwhile find out how their suggestions change your beer.

[Bunglebrewsbeer]

So basically would I ( for example and ease ) i required 25l to brew my ale. I full HLT with that volume. I then add 24g of DWB. I then add set amount of grain to mash pot. Add desired amount of water. Leave. Sparge with rest and job done. Or do I add water to grain then tinker with adjustments?


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[Eric]

Ahhh, that is the question.

Don't add the liquor to the grains, slowly add and stir the grains into the liquor.
From your question I assume you use a 3V system? Have 2.5 litres of 82C liquor for each kg of grain in your mash tun stirred until it is about 74C. With half to two thirds of the salts well mixed with grains at 20C, by the time the grains are well stirred in, it should be at a good mash temperature.
If you can, take a pH reading after 15 minutes and record it. If it is too high, adding more calcium salts to the mash will reduce pH, or adding acid like CRS to the liquor to reduce alkalinity will do similar. If pH is too low (unlikely if Murphy's figures are right) a lesser proportion of the salts should go into the mash. The rest of the salts are added to the boiler at the sart of the boil.

Hope this makes sense and helps.

[Bunglebrewsbeer]

I currently BIAB but acquiring kit to go 3 V route. Expect more brain picking in due course.


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[Eric]

I currently BIAB but acquiring kit to go 3 V route. Expect more brain picking in due course.


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If you full volume BIAB with that alkalinity you'll have problems of which I have no experience or solutions.
Good luck.

[donchiquon]

I would suggest you again read the notes with Graham's calculator, but particularly Note 5 onwards and especially from the sixth paragraph of that note starting with "If you are producing a target water from scratch."
.....
While mashing at an acceptable pH is vital, it is not the be-all and end-all of brewing, something I think is frequently overlooked. Using your water untreated to mash the beers you mention would likely result in a mash pH greater than 6.0 (apart from any with quite a lot of crystal malt) to produce a moderate beer. Raising the calcium to 100ppm or more would get the pH into the right region, but also the extra calcium will protect enzymes in the mash and deposit many unwanted products in the mash tun and boiler to produce a cleaner and more quickly drinkable beer with lots of taste. With less calcium the same mash pH could be achieved by reducing alkalinity, but the finished beer would taste different and take longer to clear. Of course all of this ignors the influences of particular ingredients and the yeast's characteristics.

My advice is to try all profiles and make up your own mind for I don't know what satisfies your taste buds. I would however advise starting with more than 100ppm calcium.

Thanks Eric!

Right! I think I'm getting somewhere....hope I haven't spoken too soon!

Having reread Graham's notes, all of the water treatment sections of the brew books that I have, and a load more threads, I have re-entered all of my info into Graham's calc and the Brewersfriend calc. This time they seem to line up much better. I have chosen a General Purpose profile in Grahams calc which includes 105ppm of calcium as @eric and other suggest, and similar sulphate and chloride figures that @Matt in Birdham suggests. I plugged this same profile into Brewersfriend and also the additions that Grahams calc suggests and now they both pretty much match. Happy days.

If i have understood correctly, I work all the numbers on my total water volume (usually around 34 litres for a 23l batch) split the Gypsum between the mash and the boil, and the other salts between the mash and the sparge water.

Just a couple of questions left...

1. If the mash pH is too high, then is there quick and dirty way to work out how much more Gypsum and Calcium Chloride to lower it? (hopefully I have got the right additions!)

2. With my total alkalinity of 37mg/l should I be looking to reduce this with CRS to around 20? (for pale ales and IPAs)

[Eric]

Right! I think I'm getting somewhere....hope I haven't spoken too soon!

Having reread Graham's notes, all of the water treatment sections of the brew books that I have, and a load more threads, I have re-entered all of my info into Graham's calc and the Brewersfriend calc. This time they seem to line up much better. I have chosen a General Purpose profile in Grahams calc which includes 105ppm of calcium as @eric and other suggest, and similar sulphate and chloride figures that @Matt in Birdham suggests. I plugged this same profile into Brewersfriend and also the additions that Grahams calc suggests and now they both pretty much match. Happy days.

If i have understood correctly, I work all the numbers on my total water volume (usually around 34 litres for a 23l batch) split the Gypsum between the mash and the boil, and the other salts between the mash and the sparge water.

Just a couple of questions left...

1. If the mash pH is too high, then is there quick and dirty way to work out how much more Gypsum and Calcium Chloride to lower it? (hopefully I have got the right additions!)

2. With my total alkalinity of 37mg/l should I be looking to reduce this with CRS to around 20? (for pale ales and IPAs)

1. Don't worry about mash pH in this brew. Measure it if you can but it's unlikely to be all that far out (probably will be a bit high without crystal malt or unless you put all calcium salts into the mash) and keeping a permanent record of what was found will be of greater future value than you might imagine. Don't start chasing it, you'll soon come to find it isn't as important as some purveyors of calculators will have you believe. The objective of brewing is to make good beer, yet these supposed aids don't tell you what pH the beer might be or should be. Ask yourself why?

I find it easier to calculate with pencil, paper and a basic four function calculator than try to use an overcomplicated piece of software, often with a built in bias or default that doesn't fit with one's personal taste.

2. Yes. At that level of alkalinity it matters little which acid you use provided it is suitable for brewing and food quality. As said, I think you would need more calcium than you intend using to get a more perfect pH, and while more calcium would be no bad thing in my experience, it might be you would be happier with using less calcium than would I.

Further reading.

[donchiquon]

Ok, sounds like a sensible approach.

Maybe I'll up the Calcium to 140 and add 2/3 of it to the mash to try and hit a better pH first time round (but won't bother trying to adjust it mid-mash).

Maybe if a higher level of calcium tastes ok I can get away without using CRS completely.

Thanks everyone for your advice. This has been the one area of brewing that I've really struggled to understand (even the bare basics!). Looking forward to getting back to hops, grains, and shiny!


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