Kits to AG is it easy?

[Beer O'Clock]

There are many good and valid reasons to use the so called BIAB and associated methods in Australia and other places with geographically different environments to those in the UK. Regardless of where you are in the world, if BIAB is your preferred method for making beer, then so be it, just don't gang up to tell newcomers, who might in time become better brewers than us all, not to bother looking any further than BIAB.

Explain how a few (who are happy with what they do) offering up an answer to the OP is "ganging up". Or should certain people (styles) not have a voice ?

The incident with Chris-x1/Daab, was a result of Luddite mentality and, in my opinion, adversely affected technical advance in homebrewing. It might not be wise for list members to suppose they know the true reason why he left and his posts removed. Care to look in a mirror like this?

At no point was there a reference to his departure.

There is more to learn about brewing than it seems some would ever want to learn. Capital investment is but one example, for that has saved its cost many times over compared to using a grain bag. My fifth mash tun will be a rebuild with my third at an extra cost of three to four pounds, afforded by a part of those savings. I hear voices saying "I get 90% mash efficiency with BIAB". So much to learn.

Just because a few BIAB brewers may be a bit misguided shouldn't tar the whole. As the case with 3V brewers. Just because some of us choose to stick with what we have doesn't mean we aren't still learning or unwilling to.
You seem to have a bitter taste in your mouth over BIAB. Maybe ease up old the "old world" hops, eh ?

[Eric]

I'm about to spend an evening trying some of this week's ten real ales at my usual Wednesday evening venue. I'll listen to the podcast later and I'll maybe not take much issue with it, but who knows?
Having spent many years in a wilderness of fizzy beer in pubs while attempting to brew a full range of real beers in the years before the internet were frequently frustrating. Yes, I could brew a beer, ones my mates would scoff Ram Sam, but I could remember the days when there was better beer than I could make.
The internet has changed the availability of knowledge beyond what could previously be imagined, and so it was with homebrewing. Chris-X1/Daab was a fountain of brewing knowledge, in a few exchanges he changed my beer by a degree I couldn't have dreamed, in a way that exposed problems I couldn't know I had, getting rid of the bag was just one little part.
Can I leave this now and quote from your post "but the cost of grain alone" is another example. I agree, my savings were not mostly from using less grain. As I said, there's so much to learn.
Cheers,
Eric.

[daf]

Anyway, back on topic. I doubted AG (whichever way it was mashed) for months because I thought crushed malt kept in sacks or tubs in homebrew shops would go off just like cereal in an opened box does.

I'm drinking a six month conditioned Woodforde's Nog, one of the premier kits. I thought it was great, a decent porter.

Until I had a pint of my AG TT Landlord clone, which has only been in the keg 10 days.

Like comparing a microwave Tesco ready meal with a meal in a Michelin Star restaurant. The difference is that clear.

[Horden Hillbilly]

Only returned to brewing recently after many years drinking commercial beers, to find that things have really moved on for the better. Completed a few kits since with mixed results but in whole pleasantly surprised.
Thinking ahead, what have been fellow brewers experiences moving from kits to AG. Was it easy, expensive, and were the results good enough to make that transition? Can you make 40pt brews successfully, using a lot of your kit equipment?
I am carrying on with the kits at the moment, but looking to make the step up later in the year, so looking for any advice l can get.

Gentleman, the op has only made four posts so far, let's try our best to answer his question based on our brewing experiences to enable him to make an informed decision on his future brewing choice.

[Orval62]

I'm sat drinking a nice pint of Woodforde Wherry, and reading all the replies. Thanks a lot for them it has certainly got me researching the all grain world including BIAB. It has given food for thought, thinking if I can make beer that much better than this Wherry, then job done. I said I've leaning towards BAIB, mainly due to initial set up costs, and it appears a simpler method of AG.
What are the thoughts about using a Burco 30 litre boiler for a 23 litre brew, is it big enough and would it require much alteration, or would i be better spending my cash on a different boiler?
Cheers tony

[AnthonyUK]

I would say a 30l would work but a 40l is perfect. I use a 40l Buffalo which is a popular choice.
With 30l you would struggle to get a 23l batch without topping up e.g. 23l + grain absorption + boil off + trub etc works out to 35l+ and often closer to 40l.
Maxi-BIAB is what you could investigate if 30l is what you go for.

[Eric]

With respect to our moderator, I'd like to reply to the last two posts in one. With a separate mash tun at a cost of around £20, a 30 litre boiler would be adequate for a 23 litre brew. There would be a trick or two to learn, but all would be available for the asking.

With further respect for moderators, would those who this hat fits please refrain from hitting the "Report this post" icon on any post that challenges BIAB infallibilty. Any who have met HHB, or any other of our moderators, would know they have a lot more in their lives than fixing other's fragile egos.

[Jim]

Just add to what Horden Hillbilly has already said: it's fine to express your opinions (including strong opinions) on different brewing systems on JBK - in fact that's one of the reasons that the forum exists.

However, let's keep personal sniping out of it please!

[Beer O'Clock]

With further respect for moderators, would those who this hat fits please refrain from hitting the "Report this post" icon on any post that challenges BIAB infallibilty. Any who have met HHB, or any other of our moderators, would know they have a lot more in their lives than fixing other's fragile egos.

I will support Eric on this. A difference of opinion (no matter how vociferous) is no reason to resort to "report this post". Keep that for personal attacks and worse.

[Jocky]

There's very good reasons to go to 3V over BIAB, but equally BIAB is a good way of trying out the whole mashing process and seeing if it is for you. Frankly you may not find the change in quality of beer worth the time/effort of even doing BIAB. I did, as did others on this thread, but you have to remember that everyone that has posted here is a dedicated hobby brewer.

Personally I started off with kits, then went to extract, by which time I had a good size pan to boil wort in on the stove and so buying a bag for £8 was a cheap way to see what mashing could do to my beer in the confines of my flat. It was well worth it, but I also realise that each step of my brewing evolution has broached new boundaries of quality.

When I made my first kit, it was the greatest thing ever, but after a second botched kit I wanted more control.
When I made my first extract brew, it was the greatest thing ever, broadening my options a hundred fold. Eventually I found limitations and became increasingly critical of my beer.
When I made my first BIAB brew, guess what? It was the greatest thing ever. I'm currently exploring what I can do with this technique, but looking back I suspect I know what will happen here...

[Eric]

Just add to what Horden Hillbilly has already said: it's fine to express your opinions (including strong opinions) on different brewing systems on JBK - in fact that's one of the reasons that the forum exists.

However, let's keep personal sniping out of it please!

Yes Jim.

I'm sat drinking a nice pint of Woodforde Wherry, and reading all the replies. Thanks a lot for them it has certainly got me researching the all grain world including BIAB. It has given food for thought, thinking if I can make beer that much better than this Wherry, then job done. I said I've leaning towards BAIB, mainly due to initial set up costs, and it appears a simpler method of AG.
What are the thoughts about using a Burco 30 litre boiler for a 23 litre brew, is it big enough and would it require much alteration, or would i be better spending my cash on a different boiler?
Cheers tony

Tony, I think it safe to say that any all grain brewing setup can produce better beers than you could get from a kit. How easy it is depends upon a great many factors, not least of which is the resources you have at your disposal, particularly time. That is my greatest retraint even though I've been retired for nearly six years.
Beer has been made for centuries by steeping quantities of malt in tuns until the starches convert to sugars. The grains acting as a filter, soluble sugars are then rinsed into a copper where the sweet wort is boiled with hops. It is possible on a small scale to eliminate the tun by putting grain in a bag to mash in the boiler. This speeds up the operation as it mostly eliminates the rinsing stage. On the down side, production capacity will be less for any given size of boiler (my 33 litre boiler can comfortably produce 23 litres of beer and 25 last brew) and the filtering by the grains is mostly bypassed leading to hamper by trub at stages when it wouldn't otherwise be present.
The options are yours, but which ever way you go there is much to learn beyond just making something that can make you drunk. The hobby can enter a different level if learning becomes more important than swallowing the end product.

[Jocky]

The options are yours, but which ever way you go there is much to learn beyond just making something that can make you drunk. The hobby can enter a different level if learning becomes more important than swallowing the end product.

Completely agree with that. The method your choose really depends upon what you want out of the hobby.

[Eric]

Eric - Please listen to the podcast and give us your thoughts.
I have always questioned people's reasons to increase efficiency as I think it is a very misunderstood measure.
This may be an important issue commercially when you are brewing 100,000 litres but the grain cost alone to compensate for a few percentage points in typical homebrew volumes isn't worth considering for me.
People do see this as a 'badge of honour' though and probably for the wrong reasons.

Sorry AnthonyUK, it's going to take some time to get to the end of that podcast (I will), as I keep checking if I heard things correctly. Got ten minutes in but its credibility was lost even earlier. Pioneers? This is by Dave Line, published in the seventies. He died in 1979 and somehow I don't get the feeling he got all his ideas from internet postings or an Aussie Brew Forum.

Methods of Mashing.

Method 1
As many home brewers already possess a boiler of some sort for their beermaking it is likely that this piece of essential equipment equipment will double up as a mash tun as well.

This was following on from extract brewing in chapter 3 of Brewing Beers Like Those You Can Buy. It is possible that CJJ Berry's first edition of Home Brewed Beers and Stouts published in 1963 described mashing grain in a bag in a boiler, although I don't have that edition to confirm that as fact.

How much research had these so called pioneers done? Perhaps all will be explained by the rest of the podcast, but it has so far made me wonder how much they know about the subject as a whole.
Eric.

[AnthonyUK]

Pat Holindale will readily admit it himself (later in the podcast) that it is not a new method. They have just progressed the method with comparison tests and science as there was always a section of established 'traditional' brewers like yourself who had a lot of questions and some with reasons as to why it wouldn't work.
These have all been subsequently discounted.
Dave Line may have mentioned it in his book and people may have used it but I don't think there was anything remotely close to the distributed effort we have seen in the last 10 years to get to the point where we are today.

I hope to hear your thoughts if you get to the end as I think some of your points will be covered.
There are interesting points later on regarding efficiency and also correcting some bad practices that have sprung up around BIAB such as over crushing malt.

The point of this thread though is not about what method is better but the OPs question is 'Is it easy to move to AG?'
With BIAB being an AG method, far simpler, with less initial outlay and pretty much indistinguishable results in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, it would be difficult not to recommend it
The resources available for BIAB (or full volume mashing as it should have been called) are great today and certainly have helped many people make the jump to AG where they might not have been able to in the past.

You should also consider Eric that you and the OP are coming from totally different experience points.

[Jim]

I mashed in a grain bag for my first few years of grain brewing (about 1986) - though in those days it wasn't called BIAB.

I switched to mashing loose in my Ritchies boiler because I found the looser mash promoted a more even temperature. I transferred the mash to a separate vessel with a grain bag suspended in it to sparge as I didn't have a false bottom in those days (make your own double entendre from that!).

That was until quite recently and you can still see me using it on the grain pages of this site here. You'll have to be quick though, because when I update the static pages (coming soon!) those pics will be history!