Secondry Fermentation

[JammyBStard]

My first AG has beeen brewing for seven days now and i'm begining to think about the secondary stage as the target SG has been reached and the airlock is only bubbling once or twice a minuit now. There's a heavy layre of trub at the bottom of the bin.
I was going to bottle it all [10lit] but i've just been reading a bit on secondary ferm. I'm now thinking of deviding a gallon off into a demijon for secondry and the rest into bottles to do a comparrison. Is secondary ferm as simple as moving the brew away from the trub and leaving it another week? Have i left it too long to try a second ferm, should i have moved it at 3 or 4 days?

[Garth]

Personally I wouldn't bother, I used to do it but never saw any better beer coming out of it whether I did it or not, you don't want all the yeast to drop out if you're bottling.

I don't do it now and get crystal clear, good tasting beer, it's just another chance for it to get oxidised/infected.

[JammyBStard]

i respect your opion Garth, and sure you'll be proved right; but i like a bit of an experiment. I'd like to do the comparrison if i havent left it too late already. What are the pitfalls of doing a secondry?
oxidisation is one!
And when would you orinarily start and finish a secondry ferm?
Cheers

[pantsmachine]

I would say that you might not have any yeast left in suspension after the sec ferment of the gallon. What did you plan to do with it? No yeast is fine if you are force carbonating the secondary fermented product but if you are bottling and conditioning that gallon you may need to add some yeast in with it so it kind of defeats the purpose?. I'd only sec ferment if i was trying to add another flavour/aroma to the finished product but if you do have the facility to force carbonate you are going to have one clear beer! Yes you run some risk of oxidisation if all fermentables have been consumed since no CO2 will be produced by the now dormant yeast and pretty much nonexistent yeast, hope this helps.

Personally i give my beers one/two day to settle after primary fermentation is complete and then bottle or keg them while being careful to leave that last 1/8th of an inch of beer on top of the sediment/yeast, works well. I made up a straight copper tube with holes drilled into its sides at set points into which i insert my flexible tygon tubing. It gives a very precise draw off of the beer and barely disturbs the sediment/yeast layer. I've still not worked out how to judge how much settling i should allow to give me a cast iron warranty on enough yeast left in suspension to carry out carbonation in the bottle, guess thats just a part of this fine obsession and what an obsession it is to.

Almost forgot, well done on the first AG and welcome to the dark side

[JammyBStard]

I deffinatly want to carbonate naturally in the bottle, so I need my yeast alive!

I would say that you might not have any yeast left in suspension after the sec ferment of the gallon

So is this saying if I wanted to do a secondary I would need to get it into the secondry chambre as soon as the primary stage is complete, but as I've already let it settle 4 days I'm too late and I should bottle it V Soon

[Parva]

I personally don't secondary as I feel it's just another risk that I don't need to take as I manage to clear mine in the primary even without finings. However, I believe that the concensus is that if you are racking to secondary it should be done around day 3-4 and no later. Ideally you still want some residual fermentation in the secondary to help build a new, protective layer of CO2 and also to ensure that enough yeast is retained to enable priming if bottling.

[pantsmachine]

TBH mate i'm not a sec fermentation guy. But i did a belgian beer this summer and left it to settle for a fortnight, clear as a bell and would not carbonate in the bottle due to lack of yeast so its your call really. A wee layer of sediment and fizz or no sediment and flat beer. i'll take the sediment any day! I'm sure someone will be along soon to sing the praises of sec ferm and i'll be reading too as we're all still learning!
Personally i'd bottle it as is. flat beers pish.

Slightly related subject. One of the reasons i have read for people to sec fer is that some nondesirable flavours can develop from the beer sitting on the sediment layer(or something along those lines). Co-incidentally my most recent beer had not finished fermenting when i left home for this trip so its been sitting on the layer in primary for a full 4 weeks. The beers a styrian stunner and i plan on kegging it and force carbonating it when i get back home next week. I'll post on this thread if it tastes off or not.

[JammyBStard]

I made up a straight copper tube with holes drilled into its sides at set points into which i insert my flexible tygon tubing. It gives a very precise draw off of the beer and barely disturbs the sediment/yeast layer.:

HAve you got a pic of this?

[JammyBStard]

i just drained off a test sample to get the layest SG etc. The colour is perfect, the taste compared to the sugar brewed kit i did last time is fantastic! It's a little cloudy, but it'll settle more in the bottle i guess! Bottling day tomorrow!

Here's another question, to check head retention, i half filled the test tube and shook it violently which left a great head on the beer, then I stood the tube and watched the head for ten minuits it settled at about half an inch or more and stayed there, then i got board of watching beer and drunk it! Is this a valid test, or at least a good indication of head retention!

[Parva]

Not one I've ever tried or thought of. Just pour a pint when conditioned and see. Whilst it's nice to have head retention I prefer to aim for a good tasting beer.

[pantsmachine]

I don't have a photo at the moment. I use a glass FV so i can see the sediment level clearly. Just about all me brews leave a 2" layer on the bottom of the fv. I took a length of 15mm copper tube measured it for height so i had a couple of inches poking out the neck of the FV with the copper tube resiting on the bottom of the FV. I blanked off the end which sits on the bottom of the FV and then measured a few mm over the sediment layer(say 2 1/2") and then drilled a number of 4mm holes in the side of the copper above that point. After that its flexible tube in and siphon on.

My original reason for this was that its arse to try and get a flexible tube to hang straight at a set level in the beer, basically that's what the tubing is like in an oil well and that's what i used to do. I am happy with the result and it works well while being a simple idea.

P.S an unorthodox but highly entertaining method of head retention testing. I look forward to hearing the post carbonation verdict.

[JammyBStard]

I don't have a photo at the moment. I use a glass FV so i can see the sediment level clearly. Just about all me brews leave a 2" layer on the bottom of the fv. I took a length of 15mm copper tube measured it for height so i had a couple of inches poking out the neck of the FV with the copper tube resiting on the bottom of the FV. I blanked off the end which sits on the bottom of the FV and then measured a few mm over the sediment layer(say 2 1/2") and then drilled a number of 4mm holes in the side of the copper above that point. After that its flexible tube in and siphon on.

My original reason for this was that its arse to try and get a flexible tube to hang straight at a set level in the beer, basically that's what the tubing is like in an oil well and that's what i used to do. I am happy with the result and it works well while being a simple idea.

After this evenings bottling nightmare i think i might be borrowing this idea! Do you leave the tube in permanently?

[pantsmachine]

No i store it when not needed then give it a 10 minute soak in a bleach/water solution before rinsing and using.