Another no aparge question

[Deebee]

A couple of weeks ago i brewed my most successful brew day ever. you can find the thread in brewdays " Northern Mystery"

I used Wyeast ESB for the first time and think i might have gotten an infection. I also used Crystal hops for the first time and at present the taste is extremely harsh.

I took it off the lees yesterday and bottled /kegged.

The point being that this was planned as the Christmas brew. However on the account that i may have to go down the sink i am going to have to do another this weekend and need to make sure i get it right. Time is really limited as well.

My thinking is that the no sparge could be faster .. and seeing as i have a monster drive and have to get brew and clean up done on friday evening i need time to be on my side this time

We travel away on Saturday so friday night will be brew night. I will not be able to start until around 7 pm and this will make for a late night so i am considering doing a no sparge.

Earlier discussions have led me to believe that i should really set the recipe with only 50 % efficiency in mind ( due to absolutely no sparging) to ensure that at least i get something. But i have a few questions and hope someone with more experience than i may be able to shed some light on the questions that i have.

The grain bill will look like this for a 15 liter batch

4900grams (10.8lb) pale
250 g ( .55lb) medium crystal
50 g (0.11lb) (black patent)
150g (.33lb) wheat

Based on 50 % this will give me a final strength of 5.4%.( Beersmith told me so) Ideally, seeing this is a witer warmer style i would like it around 1% hgher but have neither any more grain, or time to get supplies sent to me .

The questions i have ar as follows and i realy hope someone can help. I dread the thought of getting the brew done with either batch or fly sparge and not getting to be until 2 am ( after clean up before we go away) and then getting up at 5 in order to drive 550 miles....

questions are

1 What would the expected gravity be of the wort straight from the mashtun. There will be around 7 liters fluid out after subtractions are made for the grain bill plus the deadspace in the mash tun.

2 when it comes to adding water to reach pre boil volume, can i do this by adding water that is already very hot ( ie near boiling) in order to reduce betwen time to the boil, or will this effect the coagulation of protein during the hot break

3 is only 50% realistic? I have had varying efficiency but expect around 75 % or more from batch/flysparge?

4 My understanding is that a no sparge brew is maliter than a sparged brew and that the ort is a high quality. IF the post boil OG was below what i wanted could i just add spraymal boiled and mixed in?

Obviously if i get a pre boil OG that is high then this will not be needed. If the pre boil OG is relatively low ( i can get the efficiency from Beersmith this way) then the spraymaly can go into the boil quite early.
I would much rather have a brew that is stronger then i want and dilute it, than one that is too weak so that i have to strengthen it.

Please can someone help me
thanks


Thanks.

[Deebee]

just want to bump this one in case it has been hidden in the mass of other posts.

All advice greatfully accepted ( it ight never be used ut it is received with thanks:))

[Deebee]

Sorry but brew evening is drawing near.anyone shed some light on this?
Another thought to gain better efficiency would be to mash with full water amount in order to gain pre boil volume straight from the tun
Would this work?
He not them it looks like i need to catch sparge and add time to the evening.

[boingy]

It's unusual for a post to go unanswered on this forum. I suspect the reason might be that hardly anyone has used the no-sparge method, probably because we are all too tight to waste any of those precious sugars!

I can't help you with the efficiency question but question number 2 is nice and easy. Yes, you can add hot water to dilute up to your pre-boil volume. If you wanted to save time you could even have that water boiling in the boiler before you add the wort. You can calculate how much wort you will get by taking the volume of mash water and subtacting the deadspace in your MT (usually a litre or two) and also subtracting the amount absorbed by the grain (use 1 litre per kg of grain).

[trucker5774]

I can see you are really tight on time...............can you find 15 minutes? If I was doing it, I would try this....

Mix the grains with the strike water, but rather than the usual 2.5 litres per kg of grain, "fill" the mash tun to what would be the first batch sparge level.
Drain and recirculate as normal. The only extra time at this point is the recirculating (3 litres takes me about 2 mins) The collected wort can go straight into the boiler and begin boiling.
The mash tun is then topped up with hot water which you have stored in the FV (if you took it from the boiler and don't have a HLT) Stir and rest for 10 mins while the first collected wort is heating. (we are now up to about 12 minutes)
Now recirculate the first 3 litres as before (about 2 minutes again) Drain and add to the boiler. This can be a jug at a time or collect in the FV again and add in bulk. The 2nd running time can be almost disregarded as it overlaps the the boiling time for the first runnings.
Now clean and prepare as much as you can while the boil is on!

[Aleman]

Dave this has prodded me to respond to your PM as well . . . I'll do so here as it may be of interest to other brewers.

First off remember that you use your normal liquor to grist ratio . . . so somewhere around 2.5L per Kilo, which will give you about 13.5 Litres mash liquor . . . the grain will absorb about 5.5 litres meaning you will run off ~8 Litres that you then dilute back to your desired pre boil OG . . . note NOT preboil Volume!!.

What would the expected gravity be of the wort straight from the mashtun. There will be around 7 liters fluid out after subtractions are made for the grain bill plus the deadspace in the mash tun.

With a Liquor to grist ratio of 2.5L per Kilo I would expect a gravity of 1.075 . . . we used about 2L per Kilo for the Simmonds Barley Wine and got close on 1.093

when it comes to adding water to reach pre boil volume, can i do this by adding water that is already very hot ( ie near boiling) in order to reduce between time to the boil, or will this effect the coagulation of protein during the hot break

No problem using boiling water to top up as it will help bring the wort up to boiling that much faster.

is only 50% realistic? I have had varying efficiency but expect around 75 % or more from batch/flysparge?

50% is a guide . . . systems vary . . . I get around 60% possibly a touch higher . . . but then I am mashing a much larger amount of grain . . . which may or may not have an effect. Using 15Kilos of grain I get enough no sparge wort to brew two cornii worth of high quality beer and a single batch sparge to brew 20L of 'table beer'

My understanding is that a no sparge brew is maliter than a sparged brew and that the ort is a high quality. IF the post boil OG was below what i wanted could i just add spraymal boiled and mixed in?

I think it tastes maltier because it is of such a high quality due to the lower extraction of tannins and polyphenols . . . and yes no problems with topping up with sparymalt if required.

Would all hop amounts be the same regardless due to the wort being maltier than before?

Hop as usual don't make any adjustments for the 'perceived' increased maltiness of the beer.

Good luck, its a handy technique that is worth trying . . . . and really good for Big Beers . . . if rather wasteful on grain

[vacant]

I'm going to suggest a variation of Brew in a Bag (BIAB), which I've used many times and got some great beers from. In a nutshell your mash is in a huge bag in the boiler with the entire liquor. After the mash you just yank out the bag as you switch on the heat for the boil. My effiencies are at or better than: fly sparge 80%, batch sparge 75%, BIAB 65%.

I never bothered sewing the large net curtain (voille) into a bag, I just padded it around my boiler and secured it with rope tied around the rim.

Now, BIAB does NOT save me any time over fly or batch as I have to heat 38 litres of water to 68C. With a batch or fly sparge I can start mashing after heating 12 litres to 80C.

So... what if you started mashing in the boiler in a bag with a traditional 2.5 water:grain ratio but kept adding batches of 67C water throughout the mash until you'd added the full water volume?

[mysterio]

DeeBee, I read through the other thread and I haven't seen anyone address why you're experiencing a harsh flavour in your beer. The beer shouldn't taste harsh at any point in the process. At worst, directly post fermentation, it may have a few 'rough edges'.

I reckon it's almost certainly because you didnt make a starter with your wyeast. These are designed to be used as yeast samples to be stepped up in small amounts of wort before pitching. The harsh flavour is probably due to stressed yeast. (assuming a propagator pack).

If you want to increase your chances of success with this batch I would use a dried yeast like nottingham, safale s04, or windsor. Don't stress about the process too much, worry about what happens after the wort leaves the copper. To speed up your brewday you could a) have your strike water heating up on a timer switch so it's waiting for you. b) 60 minute mash & 60 minute boil. c) stir the wort while it's chilling assuming you're using an IC.

[Deebee]

DeeBee, I read through the other thread and I haven't seen anyone address why you're experiencing a harsh flavour in your beer. The beer shouldn't taste harsh at any point in the process. At worst, directly post fermentation, it may have a few 'rough edges'.

I reckon it's almost certainly because you didnt make a starter with your wyeast. These are designed to be used as yeast samples to be stepped up in small amounts of wort before pitching. The harsh flavour is probably due to stressed yeast. (assuming a propagator pack).

If you want to increase your chances of success with this batch I would use a dried yeast like nottingham, safale s04, or windsor. Don't stress about the process too much, worry about what happens after the wort leaves the copper. To speed up your brewday you could a) have your strike water heating up on a timer switch so it's waiting for you. b) 60 minute mash & 60 minute boil. c) stir the wort while it's chilling assuming you're using an IC.

This may be the case.
It is all bottled anyways now so time will maybe be a great healer. I am at work all day and brew in the kitchen on the stove so the timer is not going to help muhc. Guess i'll just have to decide whether to be knackered and hope swmbo is in form to drive or drink redbull!!!!

Haveordered some Nottingham and might have some 04 at home.

We'll see. I'd like to keep some sweetness in the christmas brew so might go for nottigham.

thanks

[mysterio]

S04 would be the better choice if you want to keep some sweetness