Still not getting it....

[crookedeyeboy]

Did AG#4 Saturday, heres the info...Used Orfy's recipe (sort of) for a Hobgoblin.

4.8kg Pale malt
150g crystal
150g chocolate
Fuggles 15g Start
Goldings 15g Start
Fuggles 15g 30 mins
Goldings 15g 30 Mins
Fuggles 15g 60 mins
Goldings 15g 60 mins

Using a sparge calculator I got the following

14 litres mash liquor
1st Sparge 14 lts
2nd Sparge 9(ish) lts

Couple of questions..

I had loads of wort still in the mash (still sweet) and my copper was very very full. Is this the only reason I have come out with 20 lts of finished product?

I am assuming that to measure dead space in the mash tun I should just fill it, then let it run out of the tap till it stops and measure whats left?

The recipe was for 23 lts and isnt too dissimilar to the TTL I have done three times, I thought I had this nailed as the last TTL I did was fine I got my 23 lts in the end...then this happens...

Any help is much appreciated but I am still sure this is down to the copper size....what size is everyone elses?

Thanks

[Deebee]

Did AG#4 Saturday, heres the info...Used Orfy's recipe (sort of) for a Hobgoblin.

4.8kg Pale malt
150g crystal
150g chocolate
Fuggles 15g Start
Goldings 15g Start
Fuggles 15g 30 mins
Goldings 15g 30 Mins
Fuggles 15g 60 mins
Goldings 15g 60 mins

Using a sparge calculator I got the following

14 litres mash liquor
1st Sparge 14 lts
2nd Sparge 9(ish) lts

Couple of questions..

I had loads of wort still in the mash (still sweet) and my copper was very very full. Is this the only reason I have come out with 20 lts of finished product?

I am assuming that to measure dead space in the mash tun I should just fill it, then let it run out of the tap till it stops and measure whats left?

The recipe was for 23 lts and isnt too dissimilar to the TTL I have done three times, I thought I had this nailed as the last TTL I did was fine I got my 23 lts in the end...then this happens...

Any help is much appreciated but I am still sure this is down to the copper size....what size is everyone elses?

Thanks

Thats how i found my dead space yes

Basically had a known amount of grain , and a known amount of water.

tapped it dry and subtracted the 1liter per kilo grain, anything then under that was deadspace( so 5 kilo grain =15 l water-5 liter absorbtion should = 10 liters. I got 9 so have a 1 liter deadspace.

I would think yu also need a bigger boiler but could always add the other wort throughout the boil as it eveporates off?

D

[crookedeyeboy]

Thanks Dave thats great. I cant believe i chucked that wort and didnt add it back to the boil!! What an idiot....

[crookedeyeboy]

Another mash question.....when recipes say 'top up' the mash does that definately mean when the mash time is up fill the mash tun with the other liquor or does it mean run the mash tun dry first THEN run the 'top up' liquor through?

I remember reading the other day that you are supposed to keep the flow going through the grain constant...

[Graham]

With the recipe given above, you should have got 1050 @ 23 litres with 75% efficiency. It certainly will not match Orfy's specification of 1.056, so your results probably not quite as bad as you think. You would need to achieve 85% efficiency to reach 1056; which is possibly a bit high for a beginner.

Brupaks claim their boiler is 29 litres. Does that mean 29 litres to the brim or 29 litres safe boiling capacity? My Burco has only 26 or 27 litres safe boiling capacity, but is probably 30 litres to the brim. Your boil would be a bit tight, mine is, but would still quite capable of achieving good efficiency.

Your problem is certainly something to do with your mashing technique - most likely sparging. My guess is that you are trying to do it too quickly or not stirring enough. The so-called "batch sparging" calculations that I have seen seem to expect people to over-collect wort and boil down to final volume. That in itself is only possible if the boiler is big enough, and the calculations have be bloody accurate too. I do not necessarily go along with it, but if the boiler is big enough to do this, and the calculations are spot on, the efficiency would be slightly higher - I guess. I prefer to have less than final volume after the boil, so that I can adjust to gravity by adding water to the fermenter.

I think you will have to re-examine your mashing technique.

[adm]

Another mash question.....when recipes say 'top up' the mash does that definately mean when the mash time is up fill the mash tun with the other liquor or does it mean run the mash tun dry first THEN run the 'top up' liquor through?

I remember reading the other day that you are supposed to keep the flow going through the grain constant...

Sounds to me as if you are confusing Fly Sparging and Batch Sparging

For batch sparging, you'd mash with a certain amount of water, then top it up (pour in the additional water and give it all a good stir round) before running off the first batch, then refill with water, stir again and run off the second batch. With batch sparging, there is no need to keep any flow constant. Just top it off, mix it up and drain it off. (Recirculate the first few litres to avoid getting too much grain crud in the kettle)

For fly sparging, you would effectively be "continually" topping up water at the top as wort drains off at the bottom. For fly sparging, you DO want to keep the flow constant, and you don't want to be doing any stirring as you need the grain to settle gently into a filter bed)

[Middo]

For batch sparging, you'd mash with a certain amount of water, then top it up (pour in the additional water and give it all a good stir round) before running off the first batch, then refill with water, stir again and run off the second batch. With batch sparging, there is no need to keep any flow constant. Just top it off, mix it up and drain it off. (Recirculate the first few litres to avoid getting too much grain crud in the kettle)

For fly sparging, you would effectively be "continually" topping up water at the top as wort drains off at the bottom. For fly sparging, you DO want to keep the flow constant, and you don't want to be doing any stirring as you need the grain to settle gently into a filter bed)

Are there any benefits to batch sparging? Surely by topping up the mash tun and stiring the grain, the grain would be ineffectual as a filter bed so recirculation wouldn't have any effect and you'd end up with loads of unwanted particle matter in the boiler?

[crookedeyeboy]

Thanks Graham

With the recipe given above, you should have got 1050 @ 23 litres with 75% efficiency. It certainly will not match Orfy's specification of 1.056, so your results probably not quite as bad as you think. You would need to achieve 85% efficiency to reach 1056; which is possibly a bit high for a beginner.

Brupaks claim their boiler is 29 litres. Does that mean 29 litres to the brim or 29 litres safe boiling capacity? My Burco has only 26 or 27 litres safe boiling capacity, but is probably 30 litres to the brim. Your boil would be a bit tight, mine is, but would still quite capable of achieving good efficiency.

Ah this now makes good sense. I got 1054 at 20 litres so If I had topped it up I would almost certainly have got 1050 with 23 litres! Its a funny hobby, I was going to top up the FV but I thought it was detremental to get the 1056 OG. Obviuosly like you say as a beginner Im not going to get 85% efficiency...Thanks again. I THINK ive got it now although I have said that before....

[adm]

For batch sparging, you'd mash with a certain amount of water, then top it up (pour in the additional water and give it all a good stir round) before running off the first batch, then refill with water, stir again and run off the second batch. With batch sparging, there is no need to keep any flow constant. Just top it off, mix it up and drain it off. (Recirculate the first few litres to avoid getting too much grain crud in the kettle)

For fly sparging, you would effectively be "continually" topping up water at the top as wort drains off at the bottom. For fly sparging, you DO want to keep the flow constant, and you don't want to be doing any stirring as you need the grain to settle gently into a filter bed)

Are there any benefits to batch sparging?

It's easy as you don't need to balance input and output flow rates. It's also quick as you can run off as fast as you like

Surely by topping up the mash tun and stiring the grain, the grain would be ineffectual as a filter bed so recirculation wouldn't have any effect and you'd end up with loads of unwanted particle matter in the boiler?

Nope. You just top it up, give it a good old stir and then let it settle for a short while - 5 mins or less. It really doesn't take long at all to drop out of suspension - and I find it's settled perfectly by the time I've recirculated a couple of jugfuls of wort. The first jugful out is pretty cloudy, the second is pretty good, and after that it's fine to just run off into the boiler.

Typically, I'm done with sparging and have my wort boiling within 30 mins of the mash finishing. I run off the first batch and as soon as there is wort in the kettle, I turn on the burner and start getting it up to temperature. By the time the first batch is run off, it's up around the 90C mark. The second batch knocks the temperature back a bit, but by the time it's done, the wort is nearly at the boil.

[chris_reboot]

I think your sparge quantities should be the other way around.

i.e
sparge 1 = 9L
sparge 2 = 14L

Thats what I do anyway.
the 9L should be stirred in as Adm says to 'top up' the tun, then run off to give you ~14L wort.
second sparge should result in the same output, giving ~28L/29L pre-boil wort volume.
I DON'T stir the second sparge water in, as I thought you weren't meant to in order to get the grain bed filtering it (but am here to learn too!)

[crookedeyeboy]

Sorry think youre right, think I got the figures the wrong way round!

Its funny coz I thought you werent supposed to stir the FIRST sparge!! Ive been stirring the second one! haha argh!!!!!!

[garwatts]

Sorry think youre right, think I got the figures the wrong way round!

Its funny coz I thought you werent supposed to stir the FIRST sparge!! Ive been stirring the second one! haha argh!!!!!!

I've never stirred the 1st sparge but always stir 2nd and 3rd sparges. No problems

[adm]

Hehehehe......I stir all my batches. Aggressively. With a paint mixer attached to a drill just to make sure.

My mash efficiency normally ranges from 85% to 92%, so it must be working!

My theory is that a good stir makes sure more of the sugars are suspended in the wort and not "hidden" in nooks and crannies of the grain that might not be washed out if water just flows gently over it.

My wort also normally comes out really clear, the beers all clear well and taste great, so I can't see any detrimental side effects of this approach.

[chris_reboot]

Hehehehe......I stir all my batches. Aggressively. With a paint mixer attached to a drill just to make sure.

My mash efficiency normally ranges from 85% to 92%, so it must be working!

My theory is that a good stir makes sure more of the sugars are suspended in the wort and not "hidden" in nooks and crannies of the grain that might now be washed out if water just flows gently over it.

You've got a good point there, and I can't argue with those efficiencies!
Guess I try that, and more vorlaufing next time!

[crookedeyeboy]

'Vorlaufing' What an amazing word!