bucket and skimming questions

[Philipek]

Hello fellow brewers.

Any help, suggestions or criticism gratefully received

I've taken a bit of time off from brewing because my beers had a strange off taste that I identified as phenolics. Weirdly though, my latest beer, brewed in August tasted quite rough in October, and now tastes amazing. Having gone through the usual suspects, whined on this forum, gone through the suspects again, I now believe that these phenolics were caused by high fermentation temperatures. I was able to keep the water bath at around 19 degrees, but subsequent reading suggests that it doesn't matter what temperature the surroundings are, it's the temperature in the FV that counts. I noticed that there was yeast dusted all over the inside of the bottle. I think that on contact with the 19 degree glass the yeast went to sleep being used to much higher temperatures in the centre of the brewing beer.

I've been fermenting in a 23 litre carboy, and recently bought a bucket as I suspected the bottle to be infected with some evil yeast (not so sure now).

I put my latest all-grain brew in the bucket, pitched the yeast, put the lid back on and fixed an air lock. There's been no activity in the airlock, yet when I opened it up (I suspected something was amiss), I was confronted by a big healthy kraeusen. So, it would appear that there isn't an airtight seal on my bucket.

Question the first:
What should I do? Would it be safe to leave it after primary fermentation for a few days to clear before bottling, or should I bottle directly after fermentation and let it clear in the bottle? I don't really want to go out and buy a secondary vessel. Luckily for me, if I have to, I can get hold of a 20L carboy for 22 dollars (about 11 quid).

Question the second:
On inspecting the contents of the faulty bucket, I saw that the yeast head was quite green. It would seem that a lot of hop debris made its way into the fermenter. That's happened before, but now with the bucket, I have the opportunity to skim. Should I do this, or should I leave well alone.

Thanks
Phil

[Philipek]

How very odd

The CO2 has now decided to exit the bucket via the airlock. Perhaps the lid makes a better seal in a slightly different position and having taken the lid off to inspect, I've replaced the lid in that sweet spot. So that answers both my questions. I'm not going skim the green muck and risk putting the lid on and not get a seal.

Thanks anyway.

Phil

[hail_to_the_ale]

I wouldn't worry too much about an airlock or indeed an airtight seal on you FV, in fact many commercial breweries ferment in open fermentation tanks & this is quite safe if using a top working yeast once a decent head has formed on the top. Yeast actually prefers to have air when working away. Just ensure it is covered with a lid when it is in it's quiet stages, ie after pitching & when the vigorous activity subsides.

I would personally recommend skimming the dark deposits the yeast has brought up off to prevent them returning back into the beer. I also do this at the end of fermenting to remove any dead yeast cells left behind.
In answer to your other question it is always best to chill the finished beer if possible to force the yeast out of suspension prior to bottling or kegging to ensure minimum yeast deposit in the finished beer.

I hope this helps

Cheers

[Northern Brewer]

I have experienced cases where a 4 inch screw-on lid, replete with a petroleum jellied O-Ring and rubber bunged airlock have refused to seal properly, so I'm surprised you're getting a bucket lid to seal at all.

A few years ago I also went through a phase of fermenting too warm. In my case the beers tasted fine but had the potential to give me crazy dreams and nightmares.

[Philipek]

Well, on inspecting it again, I don't think it's properly sealed. The airlock sometimes takes a long rest. Then starts bubbling again.

So, what did you do with the bucket that wouldn't seal. Did you use it anyway? Am I worrying about nothing?

I'm thinking about using two ten litre jerry cans as secondary vessels.

[Northern Brewer]

So, what did you do with the bucket that wouldn't seal. Did you use it anyway? Am I worrying about nothing?

Yes, you are worrying unnecessarily IMHO. Sealed fermenters are a relatively new concept.

I suspect that a certain pressure needs to build-up within the bucket, before it has sufficient energy to start pushing CO2 through the airlock. However, the gas will chose to escape through the least resistance; hence if it can get out an easier way, it will do. I know that it is possible to create a perfect seal with my screw-top fermenters, so I if I don't get one I investigate and fix it. Usually the O-Ring has either buckled or come loose.

[grmills]

Am I worrying about nothing?

Yes, you are worrying unnecessarily IMHO.

Agree, a loose fitting lid to keep dust and/or any other airbornes out is more than adequate.

[hail_to_the_ale]

yep, like I said before many commercial breweries use open FV. If anyone gets a chance visit the Wadworth brewery in Devizes Wiltshire, it's a great building & there you can see living proof as you are walked by all the frothing yeast heads as they ferment away happily in totally open vats. Airlocks are for wine makers lol.

Cheers

[trucker5774]

I agree with everything said about lids and air locks. I just like to use them! I have peace of mind that nothing nasty gets in during the early and late stages and.......mmmm..the bubbling.....the plip plop.....mmmm .....therapy

[Philipek]

so I if I don't get one I investigate and fix it. Usually the O-Ring has either buckled or come loose.

My lid's a snap on and there is no o-ring. So I'll have to live with it.

Thanks for all the response to my post.

One question though, if you do have a lid that doesn't seal or an open fermenter, do you transfer after primary fermentation to a closed fermenter, or do you leave it in the primary vessel to clear? Or do you bottle/keg immediately after primary fermentation.

I followed the recipe for Hogs back TEA on this forum. OG was 1.044. Yeast was S04.

[Northern Brewer]

One question though, if you do have a lid that doesn't seal or an open fermenter, do you transfer after primary fermentation to a closed fermenter, or do you leave it in the primary vessel to clear? Or do you bottle/keg immediately after primary fermentation.

S04 is a fast yeast that clears rapidly, and there is nothing to prevent you from bottling/kegging from the primary. The yeast is also pretty poor at mopping up oxygen so there is some argument to be made against splashing this beer around once fermentation is diminishing. It is also a rapid flocculater and some would argue that you shouldn't leave it too long before bottling, because you need some yeast presence for carbonation to occur. When I used S04 I would usually bottle/keg on around day 10. However, I recently had to bottle/keg a beer on day 7 and it has worked out just fine.

[Philipek]

That's interesting to know. I'd been following John Palmer's 3 weeks in FVs before bottling, so now I might try the other side of mature or bottle young debate.

I'm going to an aquarium shop today to scope out their heaters. I've had a devil of a time with this batch. There were no bubbles coming through the airlock, so I assumed there was no seal on the bucket. after about 5 days I assumed that primary fermentation would be over or coming to an end, so I raised the temperature to about 20 degrees. Bubbles are now coming through the airlock smelling of bananas. I think I've messed up the fermentation temperatures again.

If this is anything like the last beer I fermented at 20 degrees, it won't be drinkable till about February.

Phil

[Northern Brewer]

Be careful! I once experimented with electric heat pads beneath my fermenters. S04 seemed to like this and resulting fermentation was very brisk. However, the resulting beers would give me crazy dreams, that I'd rather do without. Nowadays the fermenters sit on a stone floor at of my cellar steps, where the temperature remains 17-18C for most of the year. Although I no longer use S04, it always fermented well in that location, and it fixed the dreaming issue.

I still think you're worry too much about seeing bubbles. Your bucket isn't airtight. The way to encourage S04 is getting the wort properly aerated at the start. I also found the re-hydrating in some sterile water for a couple of hours prior to pitching would speed things along.

[Philipek]

My tiled floor is about 16 degrees. I wasn't going for wine heaters or brew belts. I've seen aquarium heaters recommended on this forum that you can submerse in the wort and have very accurate information and control over the temperature of the fermenting beer. Unfortunately, I've not been able to find any aquarium heaters like that here in Canada.

I rehydrate and add a little cooled wort while aerating prior to pitching. I'm used to lag times of about 3 - 5 hours. I aerate like a lunatic. I tend towards the neurotic and that manifests in brewing as the anxiety I've expressed about the airlock bubbles, anal tendencies when it comes to yeast handling, sanitation and aeration and now fermentation temperatures.

I'm sure the beer will be okay. I took the gravity and it tasted great. I'll be bottling in a couple of days.

Phil