efficiency

[400d]

I made 4 batches by now, and I have to say I am not satisfied. All my beers were drinkable, but not even close to what I want to achieve....

I obviously have problems with efficiency, and don't know how to solve it. I just can't hit the desired efficiency levels.

I use BIAB method for all my brews, and though I didn't try MLT, I really don't see a reason why BIAB method wouldn't give me all the properties needed for hitting 80%+ efficiency...

I think my grains are the problem. Or maybe not...I got them from a malt factory in eastern europe (which is owned by a bigger belgian malt factory). I have huge amounts of these grains...

It's pale ale malt used in couple of local commercial beers.

I always mash at 156 F for 60 minutes in a bag. After the mash is done, I transfer the bag with grains to a bucket with a valve and double sparge with 176 F water.

For my last 6 gallons batch I used 11 lb of pale malt (very fine crush), and using the procedure mentioned above, I hit only 1.032 gravity... this is waaay to low because I expected at least 1.060....


Probably that's why my beer is kinda watery and with no body.

How can I improve my efficiency? I said that I really have a lot of these grains and I really would use AS MUCH AS NEEDED just to get a decent brew. So even if I have to use as much as double I used by now, I wouldn't mind really...

thank you all!

[400d]

Brewing in a curtain is an inefficient way of producing a poor quality wort.

If you want your beer to improve you'll need to investigate brewing properly.

believe me I did. I'm reading a lot, and really want to improve my technique, but I really don't see a difference between BIAB and MLT. I would really be thankful to you if you could explain what are the bad sides of BIAB?

[crookedeyeboy]

How come you are doing a BIAB, is it something you have just started doing and never changed?
I went from one kit to going straight into AG using a cool box and the usual kit. Its very easy to set up and as Chris has explained your efficiency will shoot up once you have more extract from the mash.
Im assuming its a surface area thing and by doing it in a bag there isnt as much access to the grains as if it was done by the usual method of mashing.

[400d]

The weight of the grains causes the bag to contract around them squeezing out all the particals that other brewers try to keep out of their wort. Regular brewers will recirculate the wort gently over the grain bed (which acts as a filter) until it runs fairly clear to improve its quality and have a couple of methods of rinsing the grains to improve efficiency.

but it has nothing to do with efficiency

[400d]

How come you are doing a BIAB, is it something you have just started doing and never changed?
I went from one kit to going straight into AG using a cool box and the usual kit. Its very easy to set up and as Chris has explained your efficiency will shoot up once you have more extract from the mash.
Im assuming its a surface area thing and by doing it in a bag there isnt as much access to the grains as if it was done by the usual method of mashing.

during the mash I really shake and stir at least twice so believe me, the water is all over the grains. I do the same thing while sparging. I do not lose any temperature during the mash.

[adm]

The weight of the grains causes the bag to contract around them squeezing out all the particals that other brewers try to keep out of their wort. Regular brewers will recirculate the wort gently over the grain bed (which acts as a filter) until it runs fairly clear to improve its quality and have a couple of methods of rinsing the grains to improve efficiency.

but it has nothing to do with efficiency

Personally, I'd say that the best way to increase efficiency is to make sure that you get good water contact with every part of the grain, and also a really good rinse of the sugars out of the grain at the end.

If the grain is all clumped together in a bag (or even slightly pressed together) it will be difficult to rinse the sugars out of the grain effectively.

I have found that a very good (and easy) way to do this is to mash in, then give the entire mash a really good stir with a paint mixing paddle attached to an electric drill. This really makes sure all of the grain is properly wetted. Once the mash is done, if you are batch sparging add the top up water and then give it another really good stir before recirculating and running off. Same process for the next batch of sparge water. The vigorous stirring process makes sure that any sugars left in the grains get washed into the wort effectively.

I doubt this would work well with a grain bag though as the bag could get caught in the mixing paddle. All in all, I'd probably say the best approach is to get a cheap coolbox and make a separate mash tun. It won't cost much and it will eliminate any effects of the grain bag from your investigation.

Of course, the other thing effecting your efficiency could be the grain itself, Maybe you should try a small mash in a pot (no bag) with a single kilo of grain and maybe 2.5L of water. Then after 90 mins add 1L, stir it well, strain it, add another 2.5L of sparge water, give it all a really, really good stir and then strain the rest of the wort. Then measure the OG of the 5L or so you collect . That should give you a pretty efficient mash and you can calculate the efficiency and compare it with the results from the bag method. If they are the same, then the problem is with the grain. If they are different, then the problem is with the bag method.

The other thing to consider is that maybe the grain itself is less "modified" than the typical UK Pale Malt. If so, you might need to do a stepped temperature mash to get decent efficiency - but that's a bit beyond my experience. Do you have a link to an analysis of the malt? (Some maltsters post their typical analysis sheets on their websites)

[400d]

The weight of the grains causes the bag to contract around them squeezing out all the particals that other brewers try to keep out of their wort. Regular brewers will recirculate the wort gently over the grain bed (which acts as a filter) until it runs fairly clear to improve its quality and have a couple of methods of rinsing the grains to improve efficiency.

but it has nothing to do with efficiency

Personally, I'd say that the best way to increase efficiency is to make sure that you get good water contact with every part of the grain, and also a really good rinse of the sugars out of the grain at the end.

If the grain is all clumped together in a bag (or even slightly pressed together) it will be difficult to rinse the sugars out of the grain effectively.

I have found that a very good (and easy) way to do this is to mash in, then give the entire mash a really good stir with a paint mixing paddle attached to an electric drill. This really makes sure all of the grain is properly wetted. Once the mash is done, if you are batch sparging add the top up water and then give it another really good stir before recirculating and running off. Same process for the next batch of sparge water. The vigorous stirring process makes sure that any sugars left in the grains get washed into the wort effectively.

I doubt this would work well with a grain bag though as the bag could get caught in the mixing paddle. All in all, I'd probably say the best approach is to get a cheap coolbox and make a separate mash tun. It won't cost much and it will eliminate any effects of the grain bag from your investigation.

Of course, the other thing effecting your efficiency could be the grain itself, Maybe you should try a small mash in a pot (no bag) with a single kilo of grain and maybe 2.5L of water. Then after 90 mins add 1L, stir it well, strain it, add another 2.5L of sparge water, give it all a really, really good stir and then strain the rest of the wort. Then measure the OG of the 5L or so you collect . That should give you a pretty efficient mash and you can calculate the efficiency and compare it with the results from the bag method. If they are the same, then the problem is with the grain. If they are different, then the problem is with the bag method.

The other thing to consider is that maybe the grain itself is less "modified" than the typical UK Pale Malt. If so, you might need to do a stepped temperature mash to get decent efficiency - but that's a bit beyond my experience. Do you have a link to an analysis of the malt? (Some maltsters post their typical analysis sheets on their websites)

I really , really stir very well and believe me all the particles are in contact with water. I stir during the mash and during the sparge. My bag is quite big so I really don't have a problem with this bag pushing the grains into one big clump, they are all around the pot where I mash and the batch where I sparge.

I believe I have bad grains, that are not fully modified. Though, when I cut open one grain, there is a white powdery thing inside, all the way to the husk, it seems so full of sugar.

[adm]

I believe I have bad grains, that are not fully modified. Though, when I cut open one grain, there is a white powdery thing inside, all the way to the husk, it seems so full of sugar.

It's probably not "bad" per se........maybe you just need to mash it differently ? Have a read of this:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index. ... ion_mashes

It might also be worth asking one of the local breweries that use the same malt, how they mash it. If they are doing step or decoction mashes with it, that might be your answer.

[400d]

The weight of the grains causes the bag to contract around them squeezing out all the particals that other brewers try to keep out of their wort. Regular brewers will recirculate the wort gently over the grain bed (which acts as a filter) until it runs fairly clear to improve its quality and have a couple of methods of rinsing the grains to improve efficiency.

but it has nothing to do with efficiency

What has nothing to do with efficiency ?

Mashing and sparging your grain properly will produce a better quality wort and it will improve the efficiency whether you choose to batch sparge/remash or continuous/batch sparge. The act of sparging was originally introduced inorder to improve efficiency and by reducing the turbidity of your wort you will produce a better quality beer.

Crushed grains are supposed to be full of a white, friable, starchy material when you cut them open, that's the good stuff, if it wasn't there all you'd have is husk which wont produce anything on its own. (no grain sourced in the UK requires step mashing)

I have just found out that the malt factory where I bought my malt (I bought 150 kg) is owned by Soufflet Groupe. Has anyone ever heard of them? They are situated in France, but doing business worldwide. I suppose they have standards in all subsidiary companies, so the factory where I bought my grains should produce fine grains...

Don't know really, maybe someone knows?

[vacant]

@400d

This BIAB thread is where I copied my BIAB method from. It also deals with how the method evolved and points out why the usual arguments against it don't matter in practice.

I didn't bother sewing a bag, I pushed a net curtain inside the boiler and draped over the rim, then tied with rope around the rim. After the mash was done I gathered up the overhang and lifted the bag out.

Now I batch sparge. Why? My BIAB efficiency without much effort is 65 - 68%, batch sparge 75 - 78%. The brew time is the same as with a batch sparge I can just heat 12 litres to start a mash, then a sparge takes 20 minutes before I can get the boiler on whereas a BIAB needs 36 litres heated before the mash can start but the sparge is instantaneous.

Difference is efficiency is simple to explain: you are not rinsing the 5 litres absorbed by the grain.

With BIAB you can increase efficiency my milling the grain finer.

I've had great beers with BIAB, batch and fly sparge

@Chris-x1

Can you explain what these particles are that would get squeezed out given that "voile" is such a fine filter? WIth a batch sparge how can these particles possibly be held back given the mash is stirred and drained (twice) so the lower layers also get compressed?

[400d]

@400d

This BIAB thread is where I copied my BIAB method from. It also deals with how the method evolved and points out why the usual arguments against it don't matter in practice.

I didn't bother sewing a bag, I pushed a net curtain inside the boiler and draped over the rim, then tied with rope around the rim. After the mash was done I gathered up the overhang and lifted the bag out.

Now I batch sparge. Why? My BIAB efficiency without much effort is 65 - 68%, batch sparge 75 - 78%. The brew time is the same as with a batch sparge I can just heat 12 litres to start a mash, then a sparge takes 20 minutes before I can get the boiler on whereas a BIAB needs 36 litres heated before the mash can start but the sparge is instantaneous.

Difference is efficiency is simple to explain: you are not rinsing the 5 litres absorbed by the grain.

With BIAB you can increase efficiency my milling the grain finer.

I've had great beers with BIAB, batch and fly sparge

@Chris-x1

Can you explain what these particles are that would get squeezed out given that "voile" is such a fine filter? WIth a batch sparge how can these particles possibly be held back given the mash is stirred and drained (twice) so the lower layers also get compressed?

I crush very fine. I stir vigorously. I batch sparge twice. I squeeze the hell out of the bag at the end.

And I hit 42%

[PureGuiness]

I had a problem with one of my brews where I think all the white goodness of the grain (or most of it) had dropped to the bottom of the bag. Since then I have always given the grain a good mix up in the sack before I measure it out for a brew and have been hitting efficiencies of 75%+ on every brew since.

[dave-o]

I believe I have bad grains, that are not fully modified. Though, when I cut open one grain, there is a white powdery thing inside, all the way to the husk, it seems so full of sugar.

These grains are definitely crushed are they?

[400d]

I believe I have bad grains, that are not fully modified. Though, when I cut open one grain, there is a white powdery thing inside, all the way to the husk, it seems so full of sugar.

These grains are definitely crushed are they?

of course. I crush them.

[Graham]

I believe I have bad grains, that are not fully modified. Though, when I cut open one grain, there is a white powdery thing inside, all the way to the husk, it seems so full of sugar.

Undermodified malt is the most likely answer. I know some French maltsters still do (deliberately) supply undermodified malt. If that is the case you will have to do a full decoction mash - not a temperature-stepped mash, that's not the same thing.

A decoction mash is for undermodified malt and entails boiling portions of the mash to gelatinise the starch. It is quite complicated.

A temperarture-stepped mash is for high-protein malt (which undermodified malt will also be). Decoction automatically temperature-steps the mash anyway.

It would be a good idea to find out something about the malt, or whether or not the local brewers you mention do a full decoction. That would give a clue.