Wheat beer...Stuck sparge??

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quiff

Wheat beer...Stuck sparge??

Post by quiff » Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:36 pm

Hey Guys
I'm thinking about doing a Weizen beer at some point in the near future and I'm just trying to get the general gist of the best approach.
Naturally when using a lot of wheat malt I am worried about getting a stuck sparge, I understand that throwing in a couple of handfulls of rice hulls helps prevent this. Am I correct in that understanding?
Also, I've come across this by John Palmer:
The other enzyme in this temperature regime is glucanase- part of the starch enzyme family, and is used to break up the beta glucans in (un)malted wheat, rye, oatmeal and unmalted barley. These glucan hemi-celluloses are responsible for the gumminess of dough and if not broken down will cause the mash to turn into a solid loaf ready for baking. Fortunately, the optimum temperature range for the beta glucanase enzyme is below that for the proteolytics. This allows the brewer to rest the mash at 98 -113°F for 20 minutes to break down the gums without affecting the proteins responsible for head retention and body. The use of this rest is only necessary for brewers incorporating a large amount (>25%) of unmalted or flaked wheat, rye or oatmeal in the mash.
Does this basically mean that giving the wheat malt a rest at 98-113 deg F will help prevent a stuck sparge ?

Zapp Brannigan

Re: Wheat beer...Stuck sparge??

Post by Zapp Brannigan » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:39 pm

How much wheat malt (as a proportion) are you looking at using?

I regularly mash 50/50 to 60/40 wheat to pale malt withour any special treatment and dont get stuck mashes. I am very careful not to over stir as I dough in and make sure that I leave an inch of liquor over the grain bed after the first runnings.

Following this I batch sparge at 80 degrees.

ZB

quiff

Re: Wheat beer...Stuck sparge??

Post by quiff » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:00 pm

I was thinking about 50/50. Do you notice much difference between 50\50 and 60\40?
I've been scared by an ipa I did a few weeks ago when I used just 6% wheat malt and had a stuck sparge.
Wheat malt is now the devil! :twisted:

adm

Re: Wheat beer...Stuck sparge??

Post by adm » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:25 pm

You probably won't be able to find rice hulls in the UK....but H&G do sell Oat Husks - which do exactly the same thing. Stick a bag of those in your mash and you'll have no problem. In fact, it'll probably be the fastest sparge you ever see.

Alternative 1) Make sure to use hot enough water to sparge with (80C) - a bit hotter than normal as this will prevent the wheat getting too gummy as sugars dissolve better in hotter water

Alternative 2) Do a protein rest for the mash at 50C (122F) for 30 mins, then raise the temperature to your regular mash temp for an hour or so. This will help as it will break down some of the longer proteins in the wheat malt, but is annoying to do without a temperature controlled mash tun.

Tip: Don't read too much into Palmer - he tends to overcomplicate things (he's also talking about unmalted wheat in that paragraph, but you're planning on using wheat malt.

quiff

Re: Wheat beer...Stuck sparge??

Post by quiff » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:53 pm

That sounds reasonable. Cheers adm.
Without reading too much into Palmer, he suggest that a protein rest at about 50 deg can reduce head retention and produce a thin beer. Do you disagree?
Good head is always a priority of mine! 8)

adm

Re: Wheat beer...Stuck sparge??

Post by adm » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:51 am

quiff wrote:That sounds reasonable. Cheers adm.
Without reading too much into Palmer, he suggest that a protein rest at about 50 deg can reduce head retention and produce a thin beer. Do you disagree?
Good head is always a priority of mine! 8)
No idea to be honest...... I'd say with 50% wheat in your beer, you're likely to get great head anyway. I normally use about 3% in non-wheat beers and get lovely creamy long lasting head..ooerr missus!

leigh1919

Re: Wheat beer...Stuck sparge??

Post by leigh1919 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:31 am

some good advice on here, Im thinking of the same for May's brewday, my first Wheat, am looking at a 55%-45% split in wheat and pale, might readjust to 50/50....

mysterio

Re: Wheat beer...Stuck sparge??

Post by mysterio » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:38 am

I've done the protein & acid rest for a wheat beer, with wheat malt there is no need TBH. What I gained in sparge time I lost in mouthfeel. The sparge may be slow but it wont stick. Single infusion all the way!

If you use oat husks, give them a very good rinse first. They have an 'oaty' flavour which carries through to the beer which isn't that pleasant.

60/40 or 70/30 wheat/barley is closer to what Germans use, remember wheat malt contains some of the precurser which produces the desirable spicy flavours in German Weiss!

quiff

Re: Wheat beer...Stuck sparge??

Post by quiff » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:48 am

Brilliant, cheers guys :D
Can anyone recommend what hops to use? Tettnang seems popular in a lot of recipes.
I quite fancy adding some styrian goldings at the end of the boil. Not authentic I'm sure but I think the flavours might work. :-k

mysterio

Re: Wheat beer...Stuck sparge??

Post by mysterio » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:50 am

Anything like Hallertau, Tettnang, Saaz, Spalt is good.

Like you say it's not authentic and I wouldn't recommend it personally but if you think it will work, it's your beer :D

Zapp Brannigan

Re: Wheat beer...Stuck sparge??

Post by Zapp Brannigan » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:31 pm

I use Hersbrucker for my weizens.

If it is your first, may I be so bold as to suggest the following recipe:

23 ltr brewlength

2.4kg Pale Malt
2.4kg Wheat Malt

Single infusion mash @ 66-68 deg for 90 mins
Batch sparge at 80 degrees for 30 mins

Boil for 60 mins

Hops: 50g Hersbrucker for 60 mins.

Yeast: Wyeast 3068

Ferment at around 18-20 degrees

Bottle condition for 10 days

Drink!

ZB

Mitchamitri

Re: Wheat beer...Stuck sparge??

Post by Mitchamitri » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:29 pm

Dont forget not to protafloc if you want a cloudy wheat beer.
When using wheat malt I put the basis of the mash in first as MO or whatever and bung the wheat on top, so long as you are careful with your stirring the MO will filter it sufficiently before it reaches the filter so it wont stick.

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Barley Water
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Re: Wheat beer...Stuck sparge??

Post by Barley Water » Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:55 pm

When I do wheat beers, I go with the traditional 70/30 wheat/barley ratio. I throw in a pound of rice hulls for a 5 gallon batch to avoid the sparging issues (if you can't find those, go with the oats, it should work the same). I also just started reducing the gap in my malt mill when working with the wheat, it increases the extraction efficiency which will suffer if you don't do that since the wheat kernals are smaller than malted barley kernals. Of course, this will make the stuck mash issue worse so some type of inert hulls will be needed to avoid problems.

As far as a protein type rest, I don't do them for a couple of reasons. First of all, I have noticed that head retention suffers when you do it and for a weizen, that is very bad. I want my wheat beers to have a big, billowy head (I also carbonate very aggressively). The other reason I don't do it is because it sets you up for more of a clove taste in the beer. I prefer the banannna/bubble gum flavors with just a little bit of clove for balance. Of course, this is mainly personnel preference although many of the best selling wheat beers do feature the bananna, for instance Paulener. As far as hopping goes, I think any noble German hop will work but you need to keep the IBU's very low, say 15 to 18 max. I personally would not even think about adding Styrian Goldings or any other aggressive tasting hops and certainly not any of the American C hops because it would clash with the yeast and wheat derived flavors. Finally, don't worry about adding any Irish moss, you don't want the beer to clear. The yeast in suspension actually adds to the taste and mouthfeel which is why maybe you have seen imbibers actually shaking the yeast loose at the bottom of the bottle (and sometimes rolling the bottle on the bar) and dumping it into their glasses (that is also one of the neat little rituals involved with drinking weizen beer, very cool).

Maybe you can tell but German wheat beers are one of my favorites and I think it's great fun to see what flavors you can get the yeast to express. I currently have two wheat beers going, a heffe and a dunkel and I am pretty happy with both of them. I will find out how well I did in about three weeks which is when I should get my scoresheets back from our big contest here in Dallas. This summer, I will probably experiment with an American style wheat beer which is somewhat of a different animal. You generally use a neutral ale yeast (although I understand that Pyramid uses a lager yeast) and if you wish, you can hop them up a bit, with American C hops if that is your thing. Anyhow, it's a great style, have fun and let us know how it comes out. :D
Drinking:Saison (in bottles), Belgian Dubbel (in bottles), Oud Bruin (in bottles), Olde Ale (in bottles),
Abbey Triple (in bottles), Munich Helles, Best Bitter (TT Landlord clone), English IPA
Conditioning: Traditional bock bier, CAP
Fermenting: Munich Dunkel
Next up: Bitter (London Pride like), ESB
So many beers to make, so little time (and cold storage space)

Subsonic

Re: Wheat beer...Stuck sparge??

Post by Subsonic » Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:34 pm

Barley water and mysterio are spot on, for what it's worth I mash 50/50 with no infusion and no probs, sparge is slower but just be patient. I am drinking a divine one now, it's been in the kegerator so long it's gone to a crystalweisen but it's awesome. I say it all the time but will repeat it, wheat beers are very forgiving. I have used Nottingham, fuggles, Golding you name it. Good luck, scuse typing iPhone, 3 wheat beers and travel don't mix :D subsonic

quiff

Re: Wheat beer...Stuck sparge??

Post by quiff » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:49 pm

Thanks for all the help guys.
I will take the advice and forget about the styrians.
malt/wheat/hop order is just about to go in :D :D :D

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