First Brew Balls Up.

[alwilson]

Hi All,

I tried making my first home brew this weekend just past. A hogsback TEA clone. It didnt go too well.

Our first problem was we shipped the mash tun to the wrong address, so we tried to use the boiler as a mush tun.... WITHOUT a grain bag. But interestingly, after a 90 minute mash with regular stirring, every 15 minutes - the first wort run off was beautiful, crystal clear, sweet tasting and wonderful. The problems only emerged after sparging. We attempted the method noted by Graham Wheeler in his book, in which we recharged the mash tun (our boiler) with our sparge water, gave it a stir, let it steep further before running it off.

Well, it wouldnt run. Just wouldnt run at all.

Nor could we sieve the grain, it just wouldnt clear. So we had to ditch that.

So my question - why did the first run off work just fine? I understand the grain bed acted as a filter... but why didnt it do that the second time around?

I'm also confused: I have two books that seem to contradict each other, my Graham Wheeler book says not to stir (disturb) the mash during the 90 minutes. But my book by John Palmer says to stir the mash every 15 minutes? Whats the best thing to do?

thanks for your help guys,

Alex

[OldSpeckledBadger]

I suppose the idea of stirring every 15 minutes must be to even out the temperature. It's a lot easier to just properly insulate the mash tun, dough in and leave it to its own devices.

[Eric]

You are lucky the first run off worked so well.
As you understand, the grain acts as a filter and like any filter, with use it clogs. You need a large surface area to avoid it blocking. This is achieved with a grain bag or false bottom rather than the small amount of grain in immediate contact with the outlet.
It works without stirring if none of the grain is dry, why bother?

[alwilson]

Thanks Eric, Badger.

I have another question, concerning mashing:

Palmer in his book "how to brew" states that you need to add a gallon of liquor at a time to the grain, rather than just dumping in all 23-odd liters.
Is this correct? or does it not matter?

In fact, here is our current process we were going to do, please someone correct, or ridicule as necessary

1. boil water
2. mash grain (adding a gallon of water and stirring in the mashtun until all the liquor has been used)
3. leave for 90 minutes (no stirring this time around!)
4. drain into boiler.
5. boil for 90 minutes, adding hops at indicated intervals
6. cool with an immersion chiller
7. pitch yeast.
8. ferment.

NB. We'll perform all this under the appropriate temperature for that step.

thanks all
Alex

[pas8280]

Hi Alex i am now assuming that you will be using your purpose built mash tun and not the boiler for your next brew,and i can't really comment on Palmers book and his method as i have never read it but this is basically what i do
1, Get mash liqour up to temp (75c) add to mash tun
2, Mash in by adding grains, then close lid wrap up for 90 mins
3, Add first batch water stir leave for 10 mins
4, Run off recirculating the first 3 or 4 jug fulls until running clear
5, Add second batch sparge water stir and leave 10 mins
6, Run off as in step 4
7, Boil wort for 90 mins adding hops at required times (as per recipe)
8, Cool to 26c using immersion chiller
9, Leave for 30 mins for hop bed to settle
10, Run off slowly into FV andding yeast part way through
I hope this helps a bit
Paul

[alwilson]

Hi Paul, thanks for your reply.

Bit confused between steps 2 and 3.

Lets say im making a 23l batch (thats what my recipe is based on):

1. add my grains to the mashtun, and fill with liquor (as much as it holds)

the next bit you mention then adding first batch water? do i drain the mash-tun first? if not, there's no room for more liqour

thanks
Alex

[pas8280]

Sorry Alex (just been on nights) i usually do 16 litre brews so for that i would add 9 litres of water at 75c to the mash tun then add my grain slowly stirring it in all the time to wet all the grains check temp to get mash temp required usually 66c if its slightly out i just ammend with little cold water. Wrap it all up for an hour then i add 5 litres of water at 75c again stir it and leave for 10 mins run it off into boiler as step 4 when its run dry i then add 12 litres of water again 75c to the mash tun all in one go stir up all the grains close the mash tun up and leave for ten mins again.
Run this off again recirculating first few jugs slowly back into mash tun so it doesnt disturb the grain bed and runs clear.
This gives me exactly 20 litres of wort into my boiler so you could adjust your water quantity to suit 23 litre run this method is called batch sparging and for me works well hope this makes it clearer for you Alex

[Horatio]

If I've read your post correctly I think you are adding the final volume of water to the grains in the mash tun? You only want to use about 2.5l of mash liquor (water) per kg of grain. If, for instance, you are using 4kg of grain you only need to add 10 litres of mash liquor to the mash tun, then stir in the grains. Make sure your mash liqour is at the correct temperature (there is a shed load of information on Jims on the whole process) then leave it for 90 minutes. Then add the first batch sparge liquor, stir, wait 10 or 15 mins then drain. Then add the second batch sparge liqour, stir, wait 10 or 15 mins then drain again. This should then give you your pre boil volume.

Hope this helps.

[Eric]

Just to confirm that it is easier to add grain to water and stir than to mix by pouring water onto the grain.

[RichardG]

Agreed; add grain to water. I don't know why Palmer suggests going the other way; that seems just to make life difficult. Can any of our esteemed experienced brewers shed any light on this? My question is academic really, as unless it makes a significant difference to the final brew, I'm not going to change the way I mash. But I am curious.

[alwilson]

Good Afternoon Guys,

Firstly thanks to all those who read and responded, its been a massive help so far. I think I have the process nailed now, in theory anyway. I'm currently stuck on the calculations behind batch sparging - I've tried the Calculator, located here: http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/batch_calculator.html but I'm still not following it too well.

I guess my questions are as below..

1. How do you calculate the volume of licqour used in the mash (prior to sparging)? Is there a formula for this?
2. How do you calculate the volume of licqour for each batch during sparging. Are they always an equal quantity?
3. Does the first batch of sparge water get added to the initial mash water without the mash water being drained first?
4. Would there ever be a need for a 3rd batch of sparging, or more? (purely out of interest)

Is this pseudo-process below accurate, the numbers are arbitrary to make the math easier.

To produce 20 litres of pre-boil wort:

Step 1. Mash with 10 litres for 90 minutes (at this point there is grain and 10 litres of water in the mash tun)
Step 2. After 90 minutes add 5 liters of sparge water for the first batch of sparging. (no there are 15 litres of water in the mash tun)
Step 3. Wait 15 minutes and Drain the mash tun into the boiler (recycling until clear).
Step 4. Recharge the Mash tun with 5 litres of sparge water (IE. batch 2), wait 15 and drain into the boiler (again, recycling until clear).

I understand this wont produce exactly 20 liters, but im more concerned about the process being correct for the time being.


thanks so much for your help!

Alex

[Eric]

1. 2.5 litres of water per Kg of grain.
2. Each Kg of grain will retain about 1 litre of water after run off.
3. Yes.
4. Yes, this can happen by design or as an afterthought.

You should initially err on the side of excess. Apart from it taking up an hour to run off the last litre, any excess can be added later to compensate for evaporation. You would use 10 litres to mash with 4 Kg of grain from which you would get 5 or 6 litres of wort. So for 20 litres to the boiler in 2 equal sparges you would need about 15 litres of sparge water, 5 litres for the first and 10 litres for the second. You don't need to have a precise split. You do need to have enough.

[coatesg]

Just to confirm that it is easier to add grain to water and stir than to mix by pouring water onto the grain.

You can underlet (adding the water to the grain from the bottom via the tap) but not sure how this works out as I've never tried it. Pouring water onto the grain sounds like a lot of hassle.

[Eric]

Yes Graeme and like you, I've not done this. Regulated percolation of water from beneath seems ideal in theory and is probably so commercially. The fundamental problem for most home brewers is the temporary nature of their set ups. Can anyone advise how this might be done using simple equipment which can be easily dismantled for storage between brewing sessions?

[bellebouche]

Funny. I always add the hot water to the grain that's in the tun - just pouring the full volume on and then giving it a mix with a whisk/paddle. It's manageble for short brewlengths as the strike volume is never more than 15 litres for me and that's just a big pan full.

I'm planning on moving to using a pump and was going to underlet the tun with the strike water with the grain already in as this'll give me a chance to fill up the tun. I also think it should effectly back-flush the tun drain manifold. No reason not to try out the reverse though and pour the grains into a pre-filled tun. I'll give it a whirl next time out.