CAN'T GET MASH AND TASTE CORRECT

[fisherman]

HI lads.
Can anyone help. My beer is not right I test it for alkilinity and adjust with CRS I use Camden to get rid of chlorine. Add gypsum or DLS on Brupacks calculator and my malt taste is weak and hops taste sour if only using EBU 15. Could the problem be ph I have never tested for ph I just assume that if the alkilinity is correct things should be ok. Can anyone advise on ph and how to check for it and how to change it during a mash as I add gypsum or DLS to the dry goods not in the mash water. MY ALKILINTY IS 85.5 I ADD 0.3 ml CRS per litre and 0.8 grms of DLS or GYPSUM per litre.
Cheers
fisherman

[fisherman]

PS. My ph reading from the water board is 7.5
Cheers
fisherman

[steve_flack]

Your water pH is pretty irrelevant when it comes to mash chemistry. The main things are alkalinity then calcium and then (to a lesser extent) sulphate and chloride.

I think you're using too much CRS. I have alkalinity 230-ish and use around 0.9ml/l CRS. You're only supposed to be reducing the alkalinity to about 50....not zero. You're using twice the amount of CRS you actually need. Personally, with your water, I wouldn't bother adding any.

Also your DLS amounts are pretty heroic. What are you aiming for. I used to use about 14g for a 40L batch. What's your starting calcium level?

[lancsSteve]

Have you tried without adjusting water chemistry? Campden tablets are a good idea but I'd start with Graham Wheelers' suggestion of "fdon't worry" and build from there... i.e. see how your beer tastes with unchanged water, see what mash pH is and then adjust incrementally from there...

Steve ^ (who I'd defer to on about anything here) may disagree here but from a relative-newbie brewer persepctive I see water adjustments as part of refining brews rather than making them in the first place. A lot of it is about getting the pH right so big changes without testing pH could be problematic... And depends on style and your water - if it tastes good brew with it... and then refine later if you want to get something spot on.

It could be other factors not water chemistry. If you want a lot of maltiness try using munich in your grain bill rather than adding lots of chemicals to the water and see if that works...

[mark]

I kind of agree with what you are saying lancsSteve and have seen others advocate this approach too.

From my readings and research though, I would say that the alkalinity is the key thing here.
Get the alkalinity of the liquor correct for the style of beer you are making (i.e. the grist) and the pH of the mash will take care of itself.
A Salifert test kit is a very minimal investement in time and money and you will know exactly how much CRS to use in every brew. Teaspoon of gypsum in the mash and the boil and work from there.
As Mr. Flack said, the OP is probably using far too much CRS....the mash pH will be out (far lower than ideal), his extraction will be poor and runs the risk of tannin extraction.

ATB

[steve_flack]

Steve ^ (who I'd defer to on about anything here) may disagree here but from a relative-newbie brewer persepctive I see water adjustments as part of refining brews rather than making them in the first place. A lot of it is about getting the pH right so big changes without testing pH could be problematic... And depends on style and your water - if it tastes good brew with it... and then refine later if you want to get something spot on.

True, if it ain't broke don't fix it. The alkalinity is pretty low so it doesn't really need fixing. It does perhaps suggest that the calcium is going to be pretty low as well - without knowing the analysis we don't know for certain. He might live is a area with high gypsum and low chalk and that wouldn't be the case.

Given what he's doing I wouldn't be surprised if his problems are related to the water treatment.

[boingy]

I'd also say brew one without the water additions. Use a crushed campden tablet in the water and nothing else.
If you are still unhappy with the results then post on here and more advice will be forthcoming.

I tend to think of water tweaking as a bit like making adjustments to a car suspension, or to the tread pattern on the tyres. You might already be able to corner drive fast enough without fiddling with stuff. And if you do fiddle with stuff it's dead easy to overdo it. Probably not the best analogy but it will have to do...

[coatesg]

In some parts of the country, water adjustments are a nice for tweaking the brew - but in others, it's pretty essential work. Where I live (I have similar alkalinity to Steve - somewhere around 190-200ppm as CaCO3 the last time I did it)- I get pretty harsh flavours in pale ales if I don't treat the water with at least some acid to bring the alkalinity down. So - it depends

I'd agree with Boingy though for first dibs - give it a go with a campden tablet for a simple basic bitter recipe and see what it's like. It could be that the problem with the beer is something else entirely - recipe, infection, yeast strain, etc.

[fisherman]

Thank you everyone,
I have bought a new salfert test kit and have just done a test. It came out at 0.50 in mls which I converted to 143 in meq/L alkilinity using the kit chart as Chris x1 informed me ages ago. My water board report regarding calcium hardness as an average of 68.25. Magnesium 4.19mg. Sodium 33.92 Na. sulphate 60.98 SO4. Anions Carbonate 51.26. I am really sorry but I don't understand any of this. I am near the point of stopping brewing I have 8kilo's of malt remaining in my sack I have not really had a fantastic brew in my 45 years of brewing I just thought I had. I really enjoy mashing sparging and boiling . I prepare the water the day before camden the CRS. Mash at 66c for 90 mins in a insulated coolbox. boil for 90 mins in boiler.Sparge with a arm. cool with a wort chiller ferment for 4 days then drop in to sterilised fermenter with a airlock for 2 weeks. then bottle.
My recipe
4kilo's otter
250grms crystal
hops 15 ebu 30grms first gold at 7.5 . 20 grms start of boil then 10 grms 30 min from end
1 protofloc tab 15 mins from end of boil.
I do keep the drains clear
IF YOU CAN PLEASE HELP ME.
( IS THIS CORRECT WAY TO READ TOTAL ALKILINITY)
0.50mls = 2.86 on the salfert chart x 50 =143 alkilinity.
thus 143 x 34litres volume of liqour = 4862 divided by 180 = 27ml of CRS
Please tell me I am wrong
Cheers
Fisherman

[fisherman]

I live in Coventry and supplied with water by SEVERN TRENT
Cheers
fisherman

[coatesg]

I just looked up a water quality report for Coventry (no idea on your postcode, so I used the university:CV1 5FB) - They give the Total hardness as CaCo3 as Min: 160, Ave: 230; Max: 322 (it's a blended supply and so probably varies a lot). Use your salifert figure, and aim to leave 40ppm as CaCO3 residual. So plumbing this and your above figures into Graham's calc, using the average and aiming for a water profile for a bitter leaving 40ppm residual, I would use 19ml CRS in 34L.

Otherwise a tsps of gypsum or CaCl2 in the mash and in the boil should be enough - I agree with Chris, 0.8g of DLS per litre sounds like a lot (your sulphates will go to 350ppm+ level with that addition).

[fisherman]

Thanks lads,
I live in CV3 5LW supplied by Zone ref ZWA09
Zone Name Stonleigh Kirby and Stivicall. Last brew I used 9ml CRS in 34 litres of water. I mashed with this water but 9grms of DLS added to grist and 16 grms DLS in sparge water,
Cheers
fisherman

[fisherman]

Chris ,
I have allways used you alkilinity test video but stop before the liquid turns pink as you explained and stop when it changes from blue to pale purple. and camden in water.
thanks
fisherman

[Eric]

I am really sorry but I don't understand any of this. I am near the point of stopping brewing I have 8kilo's of malt remaining in my sack I have not really had a fantastic brew in my 45 years of brewing I just thought I had. I really enjoy mashing sparging and boiling . I prepare the water the day before camden the CRS. Mash at 66c for 90 mins in a insulated coolbox. boil for 90 mins in boiler.Sparge with a arm. cool with a wort chiller ferment for 4 days then drop in to sterilised fermenter with a airlock for 2 weeks. then bottle.
My recipe
4kilo's otter
250grms crystal
hops 15 ebu 30grms first gold at 7.5 . 20 grms start of boil then 10 grms 30 min from end
1 protofloc tab 15 mins from end of boil.

Hold your horses. Who says water is your problem?
My water is not unlike yours, just a bit worse. This summer it reached nearly 400 ppm as CaCO3. I can improve my beer by using CRS, of this there is no doubt but I can also make a decent brew without it. Extraction efficiency goes down and it doesn't taste as good and looks a sight worse but there is no reason to refuse it by its taste.
Just as a wild suggestion add a few hops at the end of the boil and check your thermometer. My bet is it's reading high.

[steve_flack]

My water is not unlike yours, just a bit worse. This summer it reached nearly 400 ppm as CaCO3.

With all due respect it's nothing like his. Yours is very hard. His isn't. One clue that your water could do with treating is if your stouts and porters are great and your pale ales and bitters a bit so so.

0.50mls = 2.86 on the salfert chart x 50 =143 alkilinity.
thus 143 x 34litres volume of liqour = 4862 divided by 180 = 27ml of CRS
Please tell me I am wrong

You are. As mentioned near the top of the thread you don't need to remove all the alkalinity - only some. You're aiming to get to around 50 so you only need to remove 90ppm which makes it 17ml of CRS (assuming the other figures you used are correct).

The Calcium is a tad low so you could do with adding a teaspoon of DLS or gypsum into the mash. That should be enough.

As Eric mentioned check your thermometer. It should read 100C in boiling water and 0C in ice water.