Help on GW,s recipes for first AG brew

[colgilbec]

Hi all,
After moving on from brew kits and messing about with additives to these etc, i have bitten the bullet and bought a full AG set up.
I am at the stage where everything is set up ready,and i have all the ingredients ready to go.
I have read about evaporation during boils etc,but its the liquor figures on which i cannot grasp.
I am using GW,s book as my bible.
The trouble is although GW,s book is great for info i am still a little confused about[probably laughable to the experienced]one or two things.
My first is going to be Timothy Taylor Landlord using the 23 litres recipe, page 84.
Now the recipe lists all the ingredients etc, but after the ingredients is two lines,Total Liquor and Mash Liquor.
1, Am i right in thinking i use 10.7 litres for the initial mash[which seems quite a precise amount]
2, Total liquor 32.4 litres[to allow for evaporation?], do i start with this as the required 80dgrs boiling water in my initial hot liquor boiler ,then cool to 72dgrs to add 10.2 litres of this to my mash tun for initial mash then drain into collection boiler and sparge with the remaining whats left of the 32.4 litres hot water at correct temp into the mash tun to the collection boiler.
I have read that you stop sparging when the mash liquor stops tasting sweet , so, say this stops at a fictitious figure of 25 litres ,do i just keep adding water through the mash tun till it reaches the required 32.4 litres or add it straight to the second boiler containing the drawn off liquor and hops from the mash tun ready for boilng.
Full Mash Beers Page 73 states start off with 25 litres of hot liquor,that really helps,not. .
Like i previously mentioned ,i thought i had it sussed as to what to do when i read the book a few times but this has totally thrown me,the more i read into the volumes of liquor.
Any help or guidance would be really be appreciated,as i,m sure you have all been there before,what reads like simple instructions to some may be different to others,like the afore mentioned volume on page 73,thanks in anticipation.

[Scroogemonster]

10.7 litres is the mash liqour which is added to the tun and mixed with the grain and left for 90 mins. It is precise as it's usually based on a figure of around 2.5 litres of liqour per kilo of grain

The other figure, according to the book is the total volume of liquor you need to start with before you begin.

You should aim to collect around 30 litres of wort after you've finished sparging and BEFORE you begin the boil.

After boiling with hops for 90 mins, with evaporation (15%)and losses to absorption from hops/trub (around 3 litres), you should hopefully end up with 23 litres of useable wort , ready to cool and add yeast to, to ferment into your Landlord clone.

You will need possibly need more than 32.4 litres to start with, depending on whether you batch sparge or fly sparge. Which one are you doing?

Batch sparging is easier. I batch sparge and use the calcualtor provided on here: http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/batch_calculator.html

GW's book calls this re-mashing but give no details on how to do it.

I routinely prepare 46 litres of brewing water (liquor) prior to brew day ( 2 FV's full) as it's often useful to have spare liquor to top up the boil /dilute wort with if necessary etc.

My method is as follows:

I heat 11 litres of water in the boiler up to 80 degC, add it to the tun....let the temperature of the tun equalise to 72 degC....add the grain and mix....temp after mixing settles around 66 degC...insulate and leave for 90 mins.

After 75 mins has elapsed I heat up around 25 litres of liquor to 80degC (this takes 15 mins) and add that to the tun in two seperate aliquots according to the batch sparge calculator.

The grains wil retain about 1 litre of liquor per kilo, so you will need to start with more liqour than you need to get out what you want at the end!

I usually collect around 30 litres of HOT wort after sparging and then commence the boil as GW's book says

Hops are added once it comes to the boil.

The mash liquor will taste LESS sweet once sparging has finished, but you won't get all the sugars out so it will retain some sweetness.

You should sparge until you collect the required volume of wort needed for the boil (30 litres ish)

Ignore the bit about 25 litres of hot wort. That is confusing!!!

If you like I can e-mail you one of my brewday checklists which details every step I follow (and I follow it zealously)

I do many of the recipes from GW's book. It works for me and may do so for you

Hope this helps
Kev

[colgilbec]

Kev, i really appreciate your quick reply and this makes it a lot easier to grasp now thanks,as it was mainly the bit of how much hot liquor had to be put through the mash tun that was getting me confused both in volumes and when it mentions about tannins etc as the wort reduces its sweetness eventually turning to water when more liquor is put through.
Regarding the sparging , what came with the set-up in the mash tun was the usual removable copper pipe filtering system in the base and what looks like an oblong copper tubed sparge with fine holes drilled in which sits on the top of the inside of the mash tun and connects to the hot liquor tank.
There is also a drilled plate to pour onto if required which i suppose gives me both options.
I would be grateful for a copy of your brewday checklist for something to work alongside with, through PM or i,ll also send e-mail via PM thanks .

[Scroogemonster]

E-mail sent with some more info mate. Any problems just ask!
Kev

[Madbrewer]

Hi all,
I am at the stage where everything is set up ready,and i have all the ingredients ready to go......

Good for you! Take the jump and give it a try I am sure you'l lbe impressed.

I have read about evaporation during boils etc,but its the liquor figures on which i cannot grasp.
I am using GW,s book as my bible. .

Don't worry overly about the volumes too much (I didn't), Using Graham recipe you will extract enough sugars to make the beer when you have the right volume to start the boil. You 'could' even go with an approach of heating 15 - 18 litres to 77c, empty into Mashtun (is your a cool box?) let the MT heat up and the water cool to 72 then add the grain stirring until it's mixed and there's no dry pockets. As long as your Mash is 'wet' the exact consistency isn't that important. Check the temperature is around 65-68c. The grain Will soak and hold onto a lot of this moisture so you'll probably need 18-20 Litres for sparging purposes 60 - 90 minutes later. I batch sparge so I initially chuck in another 6 litres of sparge water (liqor) into the mashtun and stir and drain .. all at the end of the mash, then I can see roughly how much I need ( I work on 10% evaporation loss) so If i have collected 13 litres, (the grain is still wet/saturated) I need another 10 litres plus the boil losses. In go another 13 litres and when collected I boil the lot. (To be honest I do calculate how much sugar I have at this stage ... but you can correct the OG later with cool treated water or tap water in an emergency. I'm not saying don't go with Graham's recommendations I am saying beer wants to be brewed and an unscientific approach (like mine) would work.

The trouble is although GW,s book is great for info i am still a little confused about[probably laughable to the experienced]one or two things.
My first is going to be Timothy Taylor Landlord using the 23 litres recipe, page 84.
Now the recipe lists all the ingredients etc, but after the ingredients is two lines,Total Liquor and Mash Liquor.
1, Am i right in thinking i use 10.7 litres for the initial mash[which seems quite a precise amount].

sounds right to me

2, Total liquor 32.4 litres[to allow for evaporation?], do i start with this as the required 80dgrs boiling water in my initial hot liquor boiler ,then cool to 72dgrs to add 10.2 litres of this to my mash tun for initial mash then drain into collection boiler and sparge with the remaining whats left of the 32.4 litres hot water at correct temp into the mash tun to the collection boiler.

This depends on your water treatment program. Some people boil and cool to remove the Limescale. Otherwise if you use CRS like me you can just heat to 77ish and go from there (The cold mashtun will take some of the heat away, and you will paobrbaly be around 72 for adding the grain and 65/66 for mashing. Be prepared to heat the grain up with water from a conventional kettle if it's too cold though.

You can either heat up the whole volume or just heat up what you want, when you want it. 15l is about right for the mash 15-20l for the sparge. Collect what you have got and boil with it.

I have read that you stop sparging when the mash liquor stops tasting sweet , so, say this stops at a fictitious figure of 25 litres ,do i just keep adding water through the mash tun till it reaches the required 32.4 litres or add it straight to the second boiler containing the drawn off liquor and hops from the mash tun ready for boilng.

The sweet thing is just to highlight that you CAN over do it if your working with your own recipes. Grahams recipes will give you enough 'sugar' for the brew if you stop at 25l and top up with water for the boil losses. Carry on to 32 litres by all means. Once you get to 29 though check that it does taste sweet still. I am now used to getting the roughly the right amount but I do sometimes need to water down with maybe a litre of cold liquor still. The method will work as Grahams recipes take into account the liklihood that a novice may not be getting great efficiency. Once you have 25L in your boiler you have at least 25L worth of sugar for the brew though.

Let's say the recipe calls for 25 litres and it's an OG of 1.038 then 25*38=950 sugar points.
If you don't batch sparge but stop at 10 litres just to take a reading you would probably find that you already have 600 sugar points. I.e. 10*60 (if ther reading is 1.060 for the first 10).
If after another 11 litres collected (say at 1.032) (i.e. another 352 sugar points obtained) you have all the required sugar from the mash. You only have 21l of wort but you have extract. You can now add to the boiler and top up with water if you want to - or you can keep going to 32 litres and either 'water down' after the boil or go with something slightly stronger.) If you want an exact clone though the sugar-point method above is the way to go - but the odd (pint) dilution of wort (with liqor) to correct it to the stated OG won't be too much of a problem. (Go with small 1/3 of a pint increments and re-test i fyou do have to water it down to get to your target gravity though.

Hope this helps and does not overly confuse you. Sounds like you have enough of a grasp to make a start. Don't worry with the science too much.

[lancsSteve]

Keep good records of volumes on your first brew so you can keep a good record of your equipment.Remember everything will have dead space (below the level of the tap) - you HLT / mash tun / boiler knowing what this is will help work out how much water to use.

Don't worry too much about water treatment when you start - if your water tastes nice brew with it. Campden tablets are a pretty good idea but not essential, the rest can wait till your refining and more experienced.

Keep records of volumes and everything else on your first few brews e.g. temps start and end of mash (to work out heat loss and any extra insulation needed), water in and run off. Try working out ways to cheat / use equivalents on measuring as this saves a lot of time (e.g. I use a ruler to measure my liquor as 1cm = 1 litre in my HLT and boiler which makes it MUCH easier) and as mentioned above the volume of your dead space. All this will help you get a feel for your kit and any changes or improvements you need to make or sources of errors. Also keep a note on times such as time to reach boiling etc. - helps you plan your brewdays and figure out where you could save time or get on with other things. Keep records of time - not just the mash time and boil time but how long sparging takes and how long it takes to come up to boil. Take a pre-boil gravity and an end of boil, these may not mean a lot now but the figures will allow you to work out where to save time / improve process / change a practice / hit gravity / find a problem and will help get better advice from people here or data from brewing software like the free GW calculator or iPhone apps.

Most importantly enjoy it - don't stress, it's a very forgiving process, but good record keeping will help you figure out what your kit does for you. Remember the recipes are based on a LOT of assumptions such as the boil off rate, hop[ utilisation, efficiency etc. etc. so if things aren't as expected then you will have the data to find out where and what to change. My first few beers were all way short on volume (17-19litres) and high on gravity - my boil off rate was higher than expected.I now use a thinner mash and run off any extra into a pan after filling the boiler and then top it back up part-way into the boil. Remember if you;re running off and it 's still sweet at the end of the sparge you can take some extra into a spare pan and use this to top up the boiler a bit as it boils off - I top up at 60 and 45 minutes which gives me a little more volume and lower gravity compared to first few experiences.

If in doubt search on youtube for videos of the processes and learn from that (but don't pay attention to the yanks - they make it all WAY too complicated! )

[colgilbec]

Scroogemonster,Madbrewer and LancsSteve,
Would just like to thank you for the time you,ve all given to helping me out.
I,ve learnt a lot more from these replies in a simplified manner than i ever could trying to digest from the books i,m reading which is initially confusing.
I suppose as experience grows i will look back at the books and think yehh i know what they are on about now.
But for starting off your info has been invaluable,thanks again.

[lancsSteve]

No worries - I geeked out heavily before going from kits to AG (about 3 books worth) but learned a LOT more by doing a brew day with my bro-in-law than from all that reading! Nowt teaches like experience!

[Thorbz]

Kev, could I email you for a copy of your brewday checklist, if you`d be so kind ? I started to draw up my own, in preparation for my first AG, but got a bit bogged down, and I`d much prefer a "road-tested" list.

I also had the same queries regarding mash volumes etc, so this thread has been really useful.

[Scroogemonster]

PM sent

[monkeyboy]

lancsSteve is right - nothing you read will teach you as much as giving it a go. I read numerous books and internet sources, but once i actually started a real mash, it made a lot more sense. I didn't get the OG i expected 'cos my mash was pretty poor, but it made me realise that it's nowhere near as complicated as it sounds when you're reading... Make a checklist of when you expect to be doing things, that way you won't forget to add the irish moss, immersion chiller, etc. my blank spot is that i *always* forget to rehydrate the yeast until too late. So now it's on my tatty little scrap of paper i use. In red capitals
Good luck. You'll be back on here soon feeling very proud of your first brewday.

[captain wassname]

I found calibrating my HLT and boiler helped with measuring what went in and came out of the mash tun and how much was needed for sparging

[Manx Guy]

I'd agree that giving it a go is a great way to learn the process...

My first AG wnt pretty well... I got reasonable efficiency from the mash but miscalc'd my losses to evaporation and trub/hops and ended up with slightly less wort in the FV at 4 points over target...

I drew up a checklist as I went and tried to keep accurate records of everything as I went.

That said if Kev wouldn't mind sending me a copy of his checklist I'm sure it would be of great help for AG#2 (Sunday 10/10/10!)

SWMBO buys me loads of brewing books most of which have been very helpfull and all of which I've enjoyed reading...

Happy brewing!

Guy

[Scroogemonster]

No problem guy, just send me your e-mail address. If you miscalculated your evaporation rates, it's no problem as your wort will be more concentrated than desired and you can just dilute it to the desired OG (hence my preparing 10 litre extra liquor in case of mistakes)
Kev

[dickon]

I'm about to do AG5 tomorrow morning (GW's Guinness clone, using a bottle-recovered yeast from Brakspear's Triple), and I've also found some interesting wrinkles in GW's instructions. In particular, I'm not sure whether I can get away with (partially?) covering the boil to reduce evaporation losses but still avoiding the chemical tastes or not, and his 'dry hop with a few cones of' is annoyingly imprecise for something which otherwise seems to require measurements to the gram.

Still, AGs 1-4 have turned out remarkably successful so far -- although AG4's apparent 1073 before boiling tripped me up a bit; it got to 1039 at the end of it, although I'd panicked and upped the hop payload anyway -- and so far so tasty. Good fun, too. Should have done this years ago.