Hot Side Aeration

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Aleman
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Re: Hot Side Aeration

Post by Aleman » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:56 pm

OldThumper wrote:Is it possible that an infection could not be noticeable until after primary fermentation has finished, say 7 days after the start?
Oh absolutely, Acetobacter is a classic . . . it takes some tiime to build up depending on the amount of available oxygen. Lactobacilus is much quicker, and in the early stages tehere is no smell . . . although with Lact I can pick it up through aroma as it induces increased saliva production.

Pediococcus is another that can introduce TCP with time (IIRC)

And I am sure there si another that can produce cabbagy tastes in the early stages (Often mistaken for A covered boil and DMS)

Early/low level infections can introduce 'odd' flavours and percetions that are different from later on.

I would always recommend moving away from 'household' disinfecting agents to something that is designed for 'brewery' use if not Ritchies or youngs sterilser then something like Powdered Brewery Wash and Star san, before looking at the chlorinated caustics like stericlense and antiformin-S and peracetic acid.

OldThumper

Re: Hot Side Aeration

Post by OldThumper » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:26 pm

Thanks a lot for the reply Aleman :)

My latest brew used bleach as per G.W. method in BYORA book to sanitise the fermenter, so I will see how it turns out. Started saturday lunch time with White Shield yeast at S.G 1.050 and now the S.G. is 1.020. Had to rouse it a little because it seemed to be at 1.030 for at least 24 hours. Just tasted it from the hydrometer and it tastes good, as I would expect at this stage (yeasty obviously).

fingers crossed for this one. If this turns out like the other bad batches then I would be very surprised if it is an infection this time, having used the recommended quantity of domestos. I did consider buying peracetic acid but thought i would try bleach first as it is easy to get hold of. Don't know much about StarSan yet but I briefly read in several posts that you need a certain water profile for use with it, but that is a discussion in the santising forums I guess (I will do some reading up).

BTW: Is there anyway water treatment can cause these sort of off flavours? I always treat with the appropriate CRS (about 40ml per 40 litres for a pale ale), about 5 - 10g of gypsum, a little epsom salts and 1 campden tablet. This gives me a mash pH around 5.2 (for a pale ale this is - less CRS etc is needed for dark beers due to the dark malt) :?: May be if the mash ph is way off then you could get off flavours or poor extraction, right? As my ph is about right (I meet the O.G all the time at 75% efficiency) I have discarded water treatment (or the water itself, unless my boiler elements are screwing me over!) as the potential culprit.

Thanks again.

HighHops

Re: Hot Side Aeration

Post by HighHops » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:52 pm

OldThumper wrote:Thanks a lot for the reply Aleman :)
BTW: Is there anyway water treatment can cause these sort of off flavours? I always treat with the appropriate CRS (about 40ml per 40 litres for a pale ale), about 5 - 10g of gypsum, a little epsom salts and 1 campden tablet. This gives me a mash pH around 5.2 (for a pale ale this is - less CRS etc is needed for dark beers due to the dark malt) :?: May be if the mash ph is way off then you could get off flavours or poor extraction, right? As my ph is about right (I meet the O.G all the time at 75% efficiency) I have discarded water treatment (or the water itself, unless my boiler elements are screwing me over!) as the potential culprit.
Hi OT!

I use cheap own brand bleach and infections are very rare. If I get the odd gusher bottle, it's usually from a dirty bottle, not poor sanitisation. If you still have an issue after using bleach I would not discount your water treatment. When I first started treating my water with CRS I got the wrong end of the stick when I was doing the test (in fact my mistake was in reading the table that comes with the kit). I over dosed massively thinking my alkalinity was about 200mg/l CaCO3 when it was actually about 85mg/l CaCO3. I ditched 3 batches of beer #-o (120 pints) before I realised my mistake :oops: . The taste was ok for the first glug, but I couldn't finish a pint :-& in fact I couldn't give this beer away. First I thought it was HSA, then high ferment temperature, then an infection from rinsing sanitised kit with the garden hose. When I skipped CRS and got a good brew, I finally realised my problem was over dosing CRS.

I had completely misunderstood how to read my alkalinity. I think the instructions that come with the kit are a bit misleading. When I tested my water I didn't fill the pipette completely to 1.0 ml with KH reagent. I just half filled at random to say 0.68ml then titrated to say 0.38ml - I looked at this and thought ok thats 0.3ml difference. I looked on the table that came with the kit and 0.3 ml = 4.0 alkalinity in Meq/L. Multiply by 50 to get 200mg/l CaCO3. Wrong!!!
When you fill the pipette it must be completely filled to 1 ml to use the table. Then when I titrate down to 0.7ml for the same 0.3ml usage. Now read the table as 0.7 (i.e. 1.0 - 0.3 = 0.7) which = 1.71 meq/L. This equates to 85 mg/l CaCO3.

If I do use CRS now I always test my water again after treatment, to make sure I haven't over dosed. My alkalinity can vary from 40 to 90 mg/l CaCO3, so sometimes I don't need any at all depending on what I'm brewing.

OldThumper

Re: Hot Side Aeration

Post by OldThumper » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:37 am

HighHops, what was the PH of the mash when you over dosed with CRS? MY ph is about 5.2 so one must assume I have not over dosed with CRS or gypsum. My water is about 240mg/l CaCO3 I think.

HighHops

Re: Hot Side Aeration

Post by HighHops » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:45 pm

OT! Just checked back through my notes: all three of my ditched brews finished the mash at 5.2 pH.

Jon474

Re: Hot Side Aeration

Post by Jon474 » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:55 am

I do believe in HSA! There I said it. IMO the chemistry can't be argued with.

What CAN be argued with is whether or not the changed chemistry caused by HSA actually presents any noticeable effects in a fermenting wort or in a finshed beer.

There is an argument which runs thus...because ALL beer is brewed in such a way that allows HSA to occur, its consequences and effects have become part of the characteristics of the beer we drink - and so we accept beer affected by HSA as drinkable. It is a similar argument that allows us to ignore the effects of light-struck beer - because we have grown up with some beer always being light-struck, we are used to its effects and, again, accept it as part of the norm.

In practice...I try to minimise the possible causes of HSA - I underlet, where possible, I don't allow anything over 25C to become aerated - eg tubing from the mash tun right to the bottom of the boiler, I even minimise the aeration of the transfer of liquor from the HLT into the mash. But I am not obssessive about it. I gently but firmly stir my mash when adding sparge water (I batch sparge) and don't give it a second thought. I do try and minimise surface aeration when doing so though.

Jon

gnorwebthgimi

Re: Hot Side Aeration

Post by gnorwebthgimi » Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:27 pm

You avoid HSA (as a matter of best practice?) and you believe in the chemistry. I can understand that!

But have you ever noticed that your beer is worse if you do follow those practices?

I genuinely believe that HSA makes no difference to a homebrewer (never used 6 row though).

Jon474

Re: Hot Side Aeration

Post by Jon474 » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:54 pm

Personally...no. I suppose that's why I am suggesting that whilst HSA is a real phenomenon - there are real chemical effects brought about through aeration of hot wort - its effects on the finished beer could well be overstated.

If I am honest, I think the beer I make when I am being obssessive about HSA is genuinely of a poorer quality than when I just ignore the whole thing. Is that to do with HSA and its effects or some other variable that I haven't yet recorded? No idea!

To me this MIGHT suggest that part of the flavours and qualities of beer we have all come to accept rely, in part, on the existence of those same HSA reactions.

I do think that is interesting (like I think that adding olive oil to a yeast starter really DOES affect the growth of the yeast - again, it's the chemistry - but does it actually mean anything?) and I suggest it needs researching...but by cleverer people than me!

Jon

weiht

Re: Hot Side Aeration

Post by weiht » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:07 am

I too used to be very worried abt HSA. Reason being when things go wrong with my beer, I would then revisit everything i did in my brewing process and of course the most convenient area to fault is HSA. However, as someone who was very careful to prevent HSA, I can tell you that the effects are not as great as they are blown up to be.

Well i believe it does help to minimise it, there are a ton of other things which affects the beer more than HSA. I made very gd beers splashing hot wort while transfering the wort into brew kettle, and very bad beers where i made sure i did everything right. Of course its good practice to avoid too much HSA, and its neater as well but it should be the least of your worries :)

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Re: Hot Side Aeration

Post by f00b4r » Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:33 pm

Zombie thread revival….. :mrgreen:

I accidentally came across this post on the London Amateur Brewers website and it reminded me of some recent conversations/threads around HSA, as well some mentions in Gordon Strong’s ‘Brewing Better Beer’ book.

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MashBag
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Re: Hot Side Aeration

Post by MashBag » Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:30 am

This entire thread had been good read.
I have never had or thought it was an issue. But in modern times does an all in one BM/GF type unit go some way to eliminate it anyhow?

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Re: Hot Side Aeration

Post by nickjdavis » Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:45 am

MashBag wrote:
Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:30 am
This entire thread had been good read.
I have never had or thought it was an issue. But in modern times does an all in one BM/GF type unit go some way to eliminate it anyhow?
Not in some peoples eyes.

Many would say that in the Braumeister, where wort is pumped up through the malt pipe and then cascades out over the edge of the malt pipe, that the "problem" is likely to be exacerbated. Likewise the sudden cascade of wort out of the malt pipe when it is lifted causes a lot of splashing.

Personally I'm with you...not convinced it is an issue that should be high up the food chain of brewing concerns.

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MashBag
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Re: Hot Side Aeration

Post by MashBag » Wed Feb 23, 2022 6:48 pm

Hmm. I cold fill my BM, so that's as good surely a bottom filling?

I actually fill level so there is no cascade over the malt pipe.

Lifting very gently solve the problems gush when removing... But really.... Not saying it doesn't exist just not really an issue. And certainly doesn't justify sodium metabisulphate.

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Eric
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Re: Hot Side Aeration

Post by Eric » Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:08 pm

Not once have I experienced an outcome from what is said to be an outcome of Hot Side Aeration. I don't purposely splash liquor about except when aerating wort when pitching yeast, but nor do I make particular efforts to minimise aeration. No future changes to my procedures are planned, not because HSA does not exist, but that for many other brewers as well as myself, it has no adverse effect. HSA is like other brewing problems that a majority of British Brewers haven't had, still don't and probably never will have, but exists and emanate in another place.

I'm not alone in that opinion as the following extract from a paper in the Journal of the Institute of Brewing implies. That paper was a quite comprehensive report of brewing and differences in Canada and the United States. In eastern Canada, where barley was plentiful and cheaper than corn or rice, neither of the latter adjuncts were used, while further west and in the Uniter States, where corn and rice were plentiful and cheap, typically 40% of the grist was of those adjuncts.
Rice and corn are used, especially in the States, as an aid to giving the "cleaner" flavour that brewers, to their own detriment, have persuaded the public they should like. The effect of this extremely bland flavour (or lack of flavour) is that it shows up off-flavours very easily, and the public seem to demand consistency above all things. With this type of beer it is surprising what slight differences in processing will do to the final product. Consequently, standardization of procedure and plant is universal and up to thirty or more blends are usual. In the endeavour to standardize, and to use the plant to its maximum, brews are scheduled to within a minute. The speed with which successive brews can run depends on the running off at the lauter tun, and the speed of raising temperature at mashing and boiling. Ten brews a day are usual. In the quieter periods the times will be adhered to, and the surplus brewhouse men released for other duties. As a result, breweries have an almost continuous supply of wort.
So, if you are brewing a decent, good old fashioned mild, a proper bitter, a stout cum porter, or a fine pale ale with a good quality malt and you think it is suffering from HSA, maybe a fuller investigation is warranted.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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Re: Hot Side Aeration

Post by Hanglow » Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:03 pm

If your cold side O2 exclusion isn't excellent then there is no point in pursuing trying some of the techniques used for limiting hot side oxidation as that's were most damage occurs.

I was rather unenthused about it too until I tried one of the mini-mashes suggested on another forum a few years ago If I recall rightly, the main things that I noticed was the lack of aroma from the mash and the fact that it was demonstrably lighter than the typical mash done side by side. So I started paying more attention to various processes, and have seen my beers improve across the board, some improvements I attribute to lower hot side oxidation and some to other process steps such as less agressive boils, more attention to the mash and pH, getting better wort clarity, spunding etc

YMMV and there is no accounting for taste

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