The ever allusive perfect pint

[keithshead]

I made a passable clone of Hopback Summer Lightening as my first AG brew awhile ago. It's good and i am pleased with the results but the hop flavour seems a bit weird.

It being Summer Lightening it was all EK Goldings so there is a nice lemonyness but also a certain amount of grassiness that just does not fit. It also seems a little harsh on the tongue. How do i add enough hops to a brew to impart the spicey/ fruity etc flavours of the hops without imparting the plant like flavours.
Also, i think i get a bit confused about the IBU:GU ration on my Beersmith program. It is a measure of bitterness against maltiness yes? How do you actually measure the hopiness of a beer.

Can anyone help me with the ever allusive tried and tested smooth refreshing bitter/pale ale/IPA style pint with lots of hop flavour, but not harsh or grassy, that would be appropriate to go into a Cornelius keg. Any hops and any malt bill. I use wyeasts. There was a great pint in London the last time i was there called UBU from the Purity Brewing Co. it used challenger and cascade and was a fantastic pint!

To sum up; all my beers are a little to harsh hop wise. grassy or planty. Non- are ever perfectly balanced.

If for instance i was to brew a pale ale and instead of adding a flavour/aroma hop in the last 10-15min i was to dump a load of hops in at turn off, whack the lid on and leave it for an hour before chilling what would happen?

Don't usually get others to do the work for me but anyone have a great beer that uses any of these. i mean a REALLY great beer. List of hops currently hanging about in the freezer;

Challenger
Styrian
Cascade
Fuggles
Northdown (small amount)
Tettnanger
Whole unopened pack of Brewers Gold

[Spud395]

I know exactly what your on about, Iget this in my pale ales.
Although the last one was the best and the harshness has almost gone after around 2 months.

The conclusion I'm coming to at the minute is water treatment, I dont use any.
From what I've read alkaline water will bring out the harsh grassyness of the hops.
This dosnt effect my (even slightly) dark beers, which is in keeping with this theory as well.
Thats wher I'm at with my thoughts any way, how would that fit in with your findings

[fatnurse]

UBU is awesome!! From one of my local(ish) breweries so you find it lots in brum

[weiht]

Hi there, I know exactly what u are driving at. I too hate that grassy taste of hops and i think its a matter of personal preference. I have previously tried dry hopping in fermentor for 3 days with 1oz of hop, and it turn out awful for my liking. Recently, i tried dry hopping again with just 8g of hops for 24hrs and i still didnt like that grassy raw taste that just mask the malt flavours.

Well, im more a malthead than hophead and go for beers that have a balance between the two. I could drink APAs but definitely not for the whole night cuz i after a certain point the strong hop aroma just makes me feel sick (too much of a good thing).

Firstly, what is your hopping schedule like? How much late hops do u add and at what intervals? Lots of beers i like have late styrian additions, and this hop in my experience can be a like hard to work with. Too much and the lemony taste can be overpowering n harsh, too late and it can impart that grassy taste. My latest beer brown ale had a grassy taste from the 80c steep.

Oh about that ratio you were mentioning on beersmith, i love that!!! It soughta give u an idea of the balance of ur beer. ie i have tasted low gravity beers that has maybe 30ibu but i perceive it to be more bitter than a bigger beer with a 40-50 ibu. So, i use that ratio as a guide while formulating my beers and try not to go above 0.65-0.7

[Dr. Dextrin]

It may help to add your last hops at about 15min from the end of the boil. After this the effect seems to be increasingly grassy, but you need to experiment as YMMV. If the 15 min addition is a large you, you'll still get plenty of hop flavour, but it's a bit more "cooked" and not so grassy IME.

[keithshead]

I know exactly what your on about, Iget this in my pale ales.
Although the last one was the best and the harshness has almost gone after around 2 months.

The conclusion I'm coming to at the minute is water treatment, I dont use any.
From what I've read alkaline water will bring out the harsh grassyness of the hops.
This dosnt effect my (even slightly) dark beers, which is in keeping with this theory as well.
Thats wher I'm at with my thoughts any way, how would that fit in with your findings

You might have something there mate. I routinely add gypsum to my mash water so my next British style ale i will leave this out and see what happens Do you had a pH stabiliser to your mash water at all?

[keithshead]

UBU is awesome!! From one of my local(ish) breweries so you find it lots in brum

Tried to clone this one once... no where near it. But challenger and cascade do go very well together.

[keithshead]

Hi there, I know exactly what u are driving at. I too hate that grassy taste of hops and i think its a matter of personal preference. I have previously tried dry hopping in fermentor for 3 days with 1oz of hop, and it turn out awful for my liking. Recently, i tried dry hopping again with just 8g of hops for 24hrs and i still didnt like that grassy raw taste that just mask the malt flavours.

Well, im more a malthead than hophead and go for beers that have a balance between the two. I could drink APAs but definitely not for the whole night cuz i after a certain point the strong hop aroma just makes me feel sick (too much of a good thing).

Firstly, what is your hopping schedule like? How much late hops do u add and at what intervals? Lots of beers i like have late styrian additions, and this hop in my experience can be a like hard to work with. Too much and the lemony taste can be overpowering n harsh, too late and it can impart that grassy taste. My latest beer brown ale had a grassy taste from the 80c steep.

Oh about that ratio you were mentioning on beersmith, i love that!!! It soughta give u an idea of the balance of ur beer. ie i have tasted low gravity beers that has maybe 30ibu but i perceive it to be more bitter than a bigger beer with a 40-50 ibu. So, i use that ratio as a guide while formulating my beers and try not to go above 0.65-0.7

In my Friendly Fire American Pale Ale i used quite a lot of Styrian and, like yourself it turned out nice but too lemony. Generally i add the bittering hops early on obviously, then flavour/aroma at 10 mins then another small addition at one minute. From now on i will make one addition at 15mins.

[weiht]

Having seen some of jamil's award winner recipes for english ales, the hopping schedules are very basic and seldom have anything added after 15mins. Another thing i suspect is affecting some of my beers is the amount of hop break particles that remains in my wort.

What i do is whirlpool and ice bath to chill, after the wort has settled i will trf it into another vessel and crash chill it in the chest freezer. After it is cooled, i realised that there is alot of hop particles that settles in the bottom, and then i will rack it into the fermentor. I am thinking that the amount of time the hop particles remain in the wort while its chilling adds flavours i dont not like.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but it seems that most british brewers have a very simple late hop addition plan and is gentle on the quantity, but alot of us homebrewers are doing the american thing on british beers. Maybe we should just keep it simpler, instead of adding shitload of hops at various intervals. Keeping in mind that british hops are very different aromatically (More of a herbal note) as compared to american hops.

[dedken]

You could try a different yeast. I've recently has success brewing a british style pale ale with Saflager W34/70 (the supposed Weihanstephan strain). Masses of hop flavour without being overpowering (also didn't mask the malt), and stuck to the bottom of the bottle like cement a la S-04. I am definitely going to use this yeast the brew pale ale again, so impressed was I with the results.