Hi!
Not posted here in a while, but I'm always checking out the Brewdays and recipes!
I'm up to AG Brew No 25 now, and I'm seeing a common theme with my IPA/APA ales.
I always add some sort of bittering hop, boiling for a full 90 mins or so, and then cram a bucket load of flavour/aroma hops at the end of the boil. This usually ends up with a nice hoppy ale for the first few weeks after bottling. After two weeks or so, the beer becomes noticably more and more bitter whilst losing hop flavour and aroma. Eventually after 6 or so weeks, these well-hopped beers become barely drinkable (at least for over-critical me, my mates don't seem to mind).
It's as if the hop oils are slowly continuing to isomerise in the bottle. Is this correct? and can anyone suggest a way to stabalise the beer a bit?
One thing I've found is that, if there is still a lot of yeast in suspension at bottling (read: US-05) the hop flavour dissappears much faster than if I fine it down with gelatine at 4 deg C for a week or so. So it seems like the yeast may have something to do with it.
Just musing!
Continuous Hop Isomerisation?
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gnorwebthgimi
Re: Continuous Hop Isomerisation?
Hi Andy
I read somewhere that yeast can drag hop flavours out of beer when they flocculate. That said there are a few other possibilities:
As the beer matures the residual sweetness that balances the bitterness will be used up, perhaps you could aim for a higher FG?
If hot break material is fermented it will degrade after two weeks of maturing and will dull other flavours.
In my opinion your options are:
1. Use a different yeast more appropriate to your style
2. Use a higher mash temperature or caramalt/crystal malt to increase FG to balance bitterness
3. make sure that break material is settled before transferring the wort to the FV (use whirlfloc etc to help coagulation).
Best of luck
I read somewhere that yeast can drag hop flavours out of beer when they flocculate. That said there are a few other possibilities:
As the beer matures the residual sweetness that balances the bitterness will be used up, perhaps you could aim for a higher FG?
If hot break material is fermented it will degrade after two weeks of maturing and will dull other flavours.
In my opinion your options are:
1. Use a different yeast more appropriate to your style
2. Use a higher mash temperature or caramalt/crystal malt to increase FG to balance bitterness
3. make sure that break material is settled before transferring the wort to the FV (use whirlfloc etc to help coagulation).
Best of luck
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Spud395
Re: Continuous Hop Isomerisation?
I would have thought US-05 was the perfect dry yeast for this style of beer and a lot of these pale ales are quite dry as well (low fg)
When you mention hop oils are these visable on the surface of the beer in the glass?
Whats the head retention like, is it effected at all?
Why I ask I have a brew that went like this and I put it down to 1 of 2 things.
1) I ended up with a lot of hop material in the FV (forgot to put hop filter in the kettle)
I presume the oils were being released from the hops during fermentation, there is a little oil slick on top of the beer when poured and no head retention.
2) What temp. do you normally ferment at, a high ferment temp can sometimes lead to strangness.
Hop flavour/aroma will dull anyway with a bit of time and maybe it's just masking that flavour that was all ways there, but not noticable with all the hops.
Like you said, just musing also
When you mention hop oils are these visable on the surface of the beer in the glass?
Whats the head retention like, is it effected at all?
Why I ask I have a brew that went like this and I put it down to 1 of 2 things.
1) I ended up with a lot of hop material in the FV (forgot to put hop filter in the kettle)
I presume the oils were being released from the hops during fermentation, there is a little oil slick on top of the beer when poured and no head retention.
2) What temp. do you normally ferment at, a high ferment temp can sometimes lead to strangness.
Hop flavour/aroma will dull anyway with a bit of time and maybe it's just masking that flavour that was all ways there, but not noticable with all the hops.
Like you said, just musing also
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gnorwebthgimi
Re: Continuous Hop Isomerisation?
Hi Spud
As far as I'm aware, hop oils released won't isomerise unless heated, but from experience I agree that hop flavours do disappear.
What was the beer that had all the hop material in the fv actually like?
I assume that if the hop material went through so did the break material, which has caused me problems in the past and made my brews start to taste dull and lifeless after two weeks.
As far as I'm aware, hop oils released won't isomerise unless heated, but from experience I agree that hop flavours do disappear.
What was the beer that had all the hop material in the fv actually like?
I assume that if the hop material went through so did the break material, which has caused me problems in the past and made my brews start to taste dull and lifeless after two weeks.
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Spud395
Re: Continuous Hop Isomerisation?
It was a bit of a disaster from start to finnish gnor.
I intended mashing one night and finishing the brew in the morning.
That being the plan I was helping myself to a few brew's, which I dont normally when I brew.
Well the mash finished and I was in rare form so decided (in my wisdom) to continue, both brewing and drinking.
Well a lot of the rest of the night is a bit blurry, but I ended up with wort in the FV about 3 am'ish.
I didnt realise I had so much gunk inthe FV untill bottling day and it was far to late at that point.
The beer was brutal for about 2 months, with a nasty off taste, hard to discribe from memory.
Now it was an oatmeal stout, so a lot of roasty malts in there and they seem to have taken over the off taste after some time.
I still have a few left and it's not a bad pint now, although far from my best.
My theory on the hop oils come from the fact that when poured there is a fine head on the pint for a few seconds, which compleatly disapears, even though the beer is well carbonated.
An oil slick also appear's on the surface, as far as I can make out this has to be hop oil as I have no other explination, but god only know what else I done that night, so any idea's ?
I intended mashing one night and finishing the brew in the morning.
That being the plan I was helping myself to a few brew's, which I dont normally when I brew.
Well the mash finished and I was in rare form so decided (in my wisdom) to continue, both brewing and drinking.
Well a lot of the rest of the night is a bit blurry, but I ended up with wort in the FV about 3 am'ish.
I didnt realise I had so much gunk inthe FV untill bottling day and it was far to late at that point.
The beer was brutal for about 2 months, with a nasty off taste, hard to discribe from memory.
Now it was an oatmeal stout, so a lot of roasty malts in there and they seem to have taken over the off taste after some time.
I still have a few left and it's not a bad pint now, although far from my best.
My theory on the hop oils come from the fact that when poured there is a fine head on the pint for a few seconds, which compleatly disapears, even though the beer is well carbonated.
An oil slick also appear's on the surface, as far as I can make out this has to be hop oil as I have no other explination, but god only know what else I done that night, so any idea's ?
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andybiochem
Re: Continuous Hop Isomerisation?
Thanks for the replies!
The oils are not visible in the glass, but are visible on the surface of the beer after the primary has finished. I always do a secondary (usually with finings), so the surface oil get left behind with the yeast. No problems with head retention.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Ah, didn't know this. Will do my best to get a clear wort on my next pale brew, see if it helps.gnorwebthgimi wrote:If hot break material is fermented it will degrade after two weeks of maturing and will dull other flavours.
Spud395 wrote:When you mention hop oils are these visable on the surface of the beer in the glass?
Whats the head retention like, is it effected at all?
The oils are not visible in the glass, but are visible on the surface of the beer after the primary has finished. I always do a secondary (usually with finings), so the surface oil get left behind with the yeast. No problems with head retention.
Usually ferment at 18 deg c, in a fridge with temp controller.Spud395 wrote:2) What temp. do you normally ferment at, a high ferment temp can sometimes lead to strangness.
Perhaps that's what I'm experiencing? If the hop flavour and aroma diminishes, all I'll be left with is the bitterness, which becomes more apparent but doesn't actually increase? Makes sense I guess.gnorwebthgimi wrote:As far as I'm aware, hop oils released won't isomerise unless heated, but from experience I agree that hop flavours do disappear.
Thanks for the suggestions!
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WishboneBrewery
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Re: Continuous Hop Isomerisation?
I did find my bitterness develops after a while in the bottle, but this is usually a beneficial thing for me, and as someone said above will be to do with the residual sugars being used up.
My usual Goldilocks Zone for hoppy beers is 2-3 weeks after bottling when they are at their peak in my opinion:
Carbonated after 1-2 weeks of warm conditioning
Drinking well after week 2-3
Probably still good 3-6 weeks
After that things are mellowing, blending, Aroma & Flavour can die down
This is all from personal experience and what I think about my beers, I don't always agree with the 1-week maturation per 10-points of OG it depends on your tastes and the malts & Hops used (Dark averagely hopped beers, Yes, give them the full of not more time to mature).
Its very easy to be over-critical of your own beer.
My usual Goldilocks Zone for hoppy beers is 2-3 weeks after bottling when they are at their peak in my opinion:
Carbonated after 1-2 weeks of warm conditioning
Drinking well after week 2-3
Probably still good 3-6 weeks
After that things are mellowing, blending, Aroma & Flavour can die down
This is all from personal experience and what I think about my beers, I don't always agree with the 1-week maturation per 10-points of OG it depends on your tastes and the malts & Hops used (Dark averagely hopped beers, Yes, give them the full of not more time to mature).
Its very easy to be over-critical of your own beer.
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leedsbrew
Re: Continuous Hop Isomerisation?
I keg 80% ish of the beers that I brew, but I have found that the aroma does drop off after a month or so in the keg (if it gets that far! 
). With the last hopy beer I did though, an all citra pale, I found that the aroma seemed to come back a bit after about 6 weeks! bit of a bell curve effect!? Wonder if it's worth keeping a few bottles of you latest and putting a date on them for testing purposes!?
). With the last hopy beer I did though, an all citra pale, I found that the aroma seemed to come back a bit after about 6 weeks! bit of a bell curve effect!? Wonder if it's worth keeping a few bottles of you latest and putting a date on them for testing purposes!?