How to calculate how much Liquor is required for an AG Brew

[Crispy Hedgehog]

All,

This is probably the most asked question by people new to AG, however I apologise if it has already been posted, however can you please help.

I have used various software to try and calculate how much liquor I require for my AG recipe (JBK's - Aleman's Batch Batch Spare Calc. GW's - Beer Engine and also BrewMate) and they all give different answers. I even found a thread on here which tried to lay-it out in simple form and I got a different answer again.

I just don't know what is the correct method or which one to trust and also, when I get an answer from the software, how to interpret it so that I know how much wort I should get from the Mash and then the Sparge.

My recipe is from GW's book for the Draught Bass. Simple grain bill of 4410g and 30g of hops over a 90 minute mash and boil. I know what my dead spaces are and also my evaporartion rate. I also input the mash ratio of 3 Ltr/Kg of grain.

I am at a loss as to understand this, and frankly it is the one thing I would like to get right as I know it's the one thing that will cause me to stress when AG should be stress free and enjoyable.

"Please help Obi Wan, your my only hope"

[scott78]

i have done three AGs now, and i had the initial idea of working out all the volumes required but never got around to it, so AG 1 was due to be 25L and came out at 15L but with the correct SG.
the other 2 have been about right, you can worry about too many things before your first brew. im sure something you dont expect will cause more problems than volume. at the end of the day if you make it you your going to drink it, even if its a little harsh, i did.
start with final volume add dead space volume , add a few pints for hop retention and a fw for grain retention and a few for the boil. once its all done and cooled you can add more water if the gravity is too high or sugar if its low.
end of the day its a fun hobby so dont stress.

[steamedbeech]

Wotcha Crispy , don't sweat it , GW gives total liquor and mash liquor quantities use them as a guide to start with get a few of his recipes under your belt and get to know your set up, write down stuff as you go and bit by bit it'll come together .
I agree with Scott lighten up and enjoy yourself, the beers gonna be the best you've made yet.....and some

[soupdragon]

Hi Crispy

For an average brew of say.......

If you're going for 3l/kg then you're looking at 4.410 x 3 = 13.23l

Then say..............

20l ish of water ( 2 x 10l for batch sparge ) to rinse the sugars out of the grain. You should end up with about 28-30l in your boiler.
Allowing for evaporation, after 90 mins you should end up with 23l give or take.

All depends on your gear and method really but you're looking at 30-35l ISH for a simple 23l brew.
Others will use more, some may use less.

Hope that's of help?

Cheers Tom

[Crispy Hedgehog]

Thanks for the help.

I think what stresses me more is not knowing if my calculations are correct. I understand that everybodies set-ups are different and it is not until you start brewing that you fully realise what your own set-up is like, so I think there will be a lot of note taking to start with.

As you say Steamed, GW's book does give a guide, but my question is the figure given for mash liquor in the book - is that what I should be looking at getting out from the mash? or is it, that figure + the volume of deadspace in the MT + what I expect to lose to the grain then see what I get out of the MT?

I then have a volume of wort which was obtained from the mash which I then take away from the final volume of wort I need pre-boil, this then gives me what I need to obtain from sparging.

Thanks Tom, your post was helpful and I think I may have put what you have said in another form of words.

[Scooby]

You seem to be on the right track by calculating your constants for your system. But some constants like how much
water grain absorbs isn't agreed upon by all, plus the mix of the grist, crush and dough in/stirring practice effect it.

Another thing to watch for is thermal expansion, if foxed me to begin with. 25l at the end of the boil when cooled is going to be 24l due to 4% expansion.

As you say Steamed, GW's book does give a guide, but my question is the figure given for mash liquor in the book - is that what I should be looking at getting out from the mash? or is it, that figure + the volume of deadspace in the MT + what I expect to lose to the grain then see what I get out of the MT?

That is the volume IN the tun, the volume OUT will have losses due to dead space and absorption.

It takes a few brews to shake it all down, get in the ballpark with maths and calculators then fine tune. After 2-3 brews you'll be hitting the volumes every time.

[mdex]

I'm not one for being very scientific of perfect with anything in regards to brewing and am more of a "If I get somehere near i'll be right."

This weekend I started with 39l of liquor, added 12l to mash tun with 4.8kg of grains. 2 lots of batch sparging. The first just until my coolbox mash tun was full so somewhere in the realm of 10l then another lot of batch sparging until my boiler wouldn't allow anymore water out.

My boiler gives 1.4l dead space.

Started the boil with just over 30l of wort. Then comes loss to evaportation and 110g of hops drinking up the rest left me with exactly 23l.

WOOP.

Bet it never happens again.......

[BozBru]

Its very easy to ask what other peoples vital statistics are, then take a happy medium and base your own on them. Trial and error is the only real way to ascertain what your set up will provide.

I'm now on my third set up. The first was a 20 litre (max) boiler, which meant that I could comfortably acheive a 15 litre brew length. Not enough for my tastes, so I moved up to a 33litre (max) boiler which meant I could comfortably brew to 25 litres. I now have a 60 litre boiler, but my problem is the mash tun on anything over 5.5%. I spose what I'm trying to say is:

Get to know your own equipment. Have an incling of what strengths you plan to brew to and try and brew in proportion to your set up. And above all, always start small then work your way up.

We can all give you various volumes that mean nothing to you and your set up. E.G. I brew to 40 litres, I need 64 litres of liquor total, I will use a ratio of 2.75/1 for the mash, I do a mixture of fly and batch sparging, I end up with 52 litres pre boil, I use both elements for a period, then knock one element of for a while, then bring the second element back on for the last 15 minutes. These figures are completely meaningless to anyone other than me. The best I can hope to do is to give you some generic figures such as:

For 19 litres, you would need somewhere in the region of 28/30 litres for the whole process.
For 23 Litres, you would need somewhere in the region of 37/40 litres for the whole process.
For 30 litres, you would need somewhere in the region of 44/5 litres for the whole process.
For 40 litres, you would need somewhere in the region of 65/69 litres for the whole process.

From the above, you can see that it doesn't follow any sort of pattern. When you batch up to a bigger volume, things don't follow any sort of formulae. Trial and error on your own set is the way to tackle this. Use the total liquor volumes that come with the software only as a guide for the first few brews, you will soon know your set up and soon be mashing with X litres, sparging with Y litres and ending up with a brewlength of Z litres. Main thing is that you'll be pleasently pissed while you find it all out.

[Crispy Hedgehog]

Thanks for the replies. The getting pi$$ed while brewing sounds fun - I can do that easily enough

Think i'll just go for it and see - make loads of notes and then sit and look what I want and got then figure it all out as you say.

There's only one way to resolve this ....... GET A BREW ON.

Will hopefully get something sorted out in the next few weeks as I have a week off work coming up, kids back at school by then - seems like a cunning plan.

[captain wassname]

Dont bother so much about total liquor concerntrate on getting (say) 23 litres in the FV You need to have your HLT ,boiler and FV calibrated.
You will need ABOUT 30 litres in the boiler pre boil
So (say) 4 kg of grain. ABOUT 12 litres of liquor in MT plus grist should give ABOUT 8 litres wort (less dead space) so 7litres (plus dead space)top up.
At this point after draining you should have ABOUT 15 litres of wort.
Now at this point you should be able to tell exactly (more or less) how much wort you have collected So you need to sparge with sufficient liquot to make up to 30 litres.
If you come up short or long adjust on your next brew.
If you can ,more or less, be certain of your final volumn then you can start to worry about Efficiency and other such crap that seems to worry people.
The big word to start with is ABOUT


It aint rocket science If an old git like me can pick it up then so can you
It will take hours and you will be looking at the boiler and watching to see it dont boil over worrying that you havnt forgotten anything but you WILL brew a decent beer and you will wonder on your subsequent brews what all the fuss and stress was about
Best of luck

Jim

[bigdave]

Just to really confuse you, have you made an allowance for grain &hops settling into the dead space of your mash tun & boiler? When empty you can fill your boiler, drain it and there's 2 ltrs left that won't siphon but on brew day the hops will settle into that dead space while you're draining your boiler so you won't get the same short fall in volume....


.... Sorry I've just made your headache worse haven't I?... lol

The best advice i was given when i started all grain was to just do it! At the end of the day, provided everything is sanitised, you'll get a drinkable pint. It may not be what you aimed for but that'll come with practice!

[nigelsch]

There is no substitute for getting to know your own system but I understand you are trying to get your volume's right
to start with. Just throwing a few different points which may help you (or later). I use a standard brew volume, boil time
and batch sparge, so I know my volumes for starting water needed, water into HLT and what will then result in FV.

If you batch sparge, this can be helpful. I dont worry too much about a 50/50 split. So the first batch get a rough
top up to 50% and then I measure what I got out, then the 2nd batch sparge needs my attention to get the right volume
into the HLT. If there is any dead space in the mash I don't worry, I just know I have to add another <n>litres to get
<n> out.

I use beer smith, but I have blanked most of the variables (apart from % evap), as I simply know I loose <k> litres to
the hops and boil dead space.

Its prob best to under-estimate to start with, as you can always add water volume to your FV; but weak over volume is
more of a problem. Then in the meantime, you will be getting a handle of your system.

[Crispy Hedgehog]

Thanks for all the replies, your help and encouragement has been very helpful. Anyway have ordered my grains and hops and will be looking to get things underway in a few weeks time (when I have a week off work). Will definitely post a "Brewday" thread and will take pics.....