Tannin problem I cannot get rid of! help!

[norstar]

Chaps, you'll see from my previous posts I've had a long running bitterness/astringency problem and I've tried what seems to be everything but I've still got it. The guy from the local micro tasted my Christmas brew and declared nothing badly wrong with it except for that it was very dry which he put down to mashing at too low a temp so I repeated the recipe but mashed at 67-68 degrees and sparged at 78 degrees and yet I got even worse tannin-like astringency. The odd thing is the liquor doesn't taste bitter from the mash tun, but it's virtually undrinkable until months later when the astringency/bitterness has faded.

I can only think that it's water issues, but our alkalinity is 189 apparently, and I used the water calculator and added 22.5ml CRS to 25 ml of liquor used for mash and sparge. I also added half a teaspoon of Gypsum to the grist.

I fly sparged to no less than 1.010 so surely that's not it and I tested the pH of the mash and it was 5.2, though I confess I didn't test the sparge run off.

The mash ended at 8pm and the rolling boil got started at 9.15pm so I don't think I sparged particularly quickly.

Could it be that the CRS and Gypsum still isn't enough to achieve the acidity required? It can only be the sparge surely whereby the mash pH is fine, but even with a CRS addition, the innate alkalinity of the sparge water is overcoming the buffering capability of the grist? In which case, do I need to add gypsum and calcium chloride to balance to the sparge liquor as well to further acidify it.

Or could it be something else? It's driving me nuts as my brews just have an astringent taste, no maltiness and no hop character at all. The only successful brews I did were two Kolschs but I wonder if the Munich and lager malt helped with acidity?

[zgoda]

How quick do you cool the wort? I had such problem once when I left wort for cooling naturally overnight.

[floydmeddler]

Perhaps you could try brewing with bottled water? The ASDA stuff is pretty good and cheap as well. That way, if it turns out OK, you know for defs what the issue is.

[DerbyshireNick]

I would be tempted by a kit of extract brew if it continues to confirm its the mash?

[PureGuiness]

what's the water composition? CRS will increase levels of sulphate and chloride although it shouln't be a problem. If the ratio of the two heavily favours sulphate though this could start to be less crisp and more astringent.

What fg do you get on most brews on average. is it particularly low? Are you sure the thermomter is accurate?

[norstar]

Thanks for the replies - I crash cool with a thing of beauty - my copper coil. Brings the wort from boiling to 20 degrees in 15 mins or less! The break is always a roaring success.

FG for the last batch was 1.012 down from 1.044 I think. Never gone below 1.010 in a brew.

Water composition is (from memory):

Ca 93
Mg 2
Na 14.7
Carbonates 116
Sulphate 38
Chloride 27
Alkalinity 189 and hardness 232

Hence CRS usage. I wonder if the Alkalinity is actually higher. Would 40 points of alkalinity make that much difference to the sparge to leach tannins?

Floyd - if you use the Asda water as I see many do, what do you do to it for a typical bitter? Just gypsum in mash and liquor?

[PureGuiness]

I don't think it's your water treatment to be fair. You say that you are hitting mash pH spot on and looking at the amount of CRS you are adding it seems that you would have a residual alkalinity of around 40 which should balance the acidity of the malt. Also the Sulphate / Chloride levels and ratio look perfectly acceptable as do your additions of Gypsum.

I'm not convinced you have a problem with tannin extraction either. What temperature do you sparge at? Higher temperatures might start to extract tannin from the grain but I don't think this is likely/

You have also stated that a local micro brewer has tasted a beer and said there is nothing wrong other than a dryness. Could it be that the beer being produced is just not that well balanced - too high BU:GU ratio?

Maybe trying more hops late on in the boil to increase flavour with less harsh bitterness? Could it be use of dark, husked malts that are creating an astringent / harsh bitterness?

Something else to look at is the ingredients. I'm sure someone on here mentioned that they were unhappy with the taste of the beer they produced but eveyone else that tasted it said it was fine. Eventually I'm sure it was tracked down to the use of Caramalt and when the brewer stopped using that malt they too became happy with the end results. Everyones taste is different and peoples sensitivity to different flavours will differ. I also think that people tend to be more critical of their own beers than others.

[norstar]

Someone on here did mention Amber malt gave him that taste. I've done a brew a week ago without it.

I sparged at 78 degrees on the last lot - deliberately lower than the 80-82 I did in the brew before that. Thermometers are fine. I've got three within 1 deg of each other.

Thing is though, I've done about 15 brews, and they've used different malts from different suppliers thus ruling out one bad batch, but with the exception of the Kolsch's (which used lager & munich malt), all of them have had this harsh bitterness. I've got the Hops utils in Beer engine at the higher end, so I don't think it's excessive hops either. I haven't splashed the beer and the local micro said he didn't think it was hot side aeration.

[coatesg]

Bringing the sparge temp down will reduce tannin extraction, but it sounds like your water treatment is right - your figures aren't a million miles away from mine. What yeast are you using?

[DerbyshireNick]

I am beginning to think you have "the twang".

How long are you leaving the beers before declaring them rubbish? if its less than 6-8 weeks I would be tempted to wait.

Though to be fair I suffered with a bitter, almost grainy, back of the tong.. almost throaty rough bitter taste. You could taste it right from fermentation through to drinking. Two changes I made that cured it. 1) DLS additions as recommended on the Brupacks site and the other 2) was getting the wort down to 18ish before pitching and winding up slowly over the first 48 hours to operating temp. oh... and 3 was the use of a carbon water filter instead of boil treating with campden.

I think it was the correct addition of DLS as I got a malty brew like never before.

[norstar]

I used Danstar Nottingham yeast for the last few brews, pitched at max 25 and fermented at 18-20 degrees in a temperature controlled fridge.

The last brew I did was mid Jan and I had a bottle last night so I've leaving it more than 6-8 weeks. Age does seem to improve it slightly (as in MONTHS of leaving it), but it's never totally gone - there's always that astringency. The best brew I did was, with hindsight, the first one, where after using lactic acid and copious amounts of gypsum, it came out bitter like nothing else but nearly nine months later was pretty good. Since then however, it's gone to pot.

This is worrying me even more now. If the water treatment appears correct, something's not right. Problem is, now I REALLY don't know where to start!

Might try a wholesale water change but if I use the ASDA stuff, what does everyone add to it to get good brewing liquor?

[Eric]

Someone on here did mention Amber malt gave him that taste. I've done a brew a week ago without it.

I sparged at 78 degrees on the last lot - deliberately lower than the 80-82 I did in the brew before that. Thermometers are fine. I've got three within 1 deg of each other.

Thing is though, I've done about 15 brews, and they've used different malts from different suppliers thus ruling out one bad batch, but with the exception of the Kolsch's (which used lager & munich malt), all of them have had this harsh bitterness. I've got the Hops utils in Beer engine at the higher end, so I don't think it's excessive hops either. I haven't splashed the beer and the local micro said he didn't think it was hot side aeration.

Amber malt has given me cause to wonder. Can't recall using it until relatively recently and got a bit of a shock with a first attempt. It might be just that batch of grain as I can't seem to replicate the taste thought to be it in commercial beers. Since then it's been less than 2% of ingredients.

You have made major efforts to eradicate this problem and to be frank, reading this, I think few have had to go to a similar extent without finding a cause or answer.
Do you test your water's alkalinity after treatment? If I used the water company's figures, the water could be little better than no treatment at all and I suspect there will be places where it will be possible to well overdose with CRS.
Does your water pass through any pipe your domestic water doesn't? If so, at the least, make a cup of weak tea with that supply and taste the result.
Do you use mostly high alpha hops? If so, try sticking to some of the older strains, like Fuggles, puff's hops as Critch would call them.

I feel the suggestion above of using bottled water with some gypsum and a recipe that gave a poor result should rule in or out your supply and plumbing.
Good luck.

[fisherman]

I think the dosage is dead on for CRS , I would stop the gypsum and add 0.7grams of DLS per litre,Do you use a digital thermometer?,

[vacant]

1) Try BIAB, get a net curtain from Dunelm. You get a lower efficiency with BIAB but won't ever get off-flavours due to over-extraction.

Perhaps you could try brewing with bottled water? The ASDA stuff is pretty good and cheap as well. That way, if it turns out OK, you know for defs what the issue is.

2) Yes, or Reverse Osmosis water is 10p/litre. Chemically similar to distilled water so easy to do salt additions and cheaper than bottled water.

[PureGuiness]

Or try batch sparging instead. Batch Sparging is less prone to issues caused by process than with fly sparging. Again the efficiency can be slightly less but having said that it tends to be quite consistent and produces great results.