Help - Black malt qty suggestions Cold Steeped - Black IPA

stevetk189 · Post by **stevetk189** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:42 pm

Hi folkeroonies,

I am going to have a crack at a Black IPA {ducks to avoid thrown shoe} on Monday and am just working out the grains I am planning on chucking in.

I've been finding a bit of info across t'interwebs regarding cold steeping the black malt which is what I plan to do as I want the colour but not the harshness, burnt flavours.

I will be using some chocolate malt in the mash for a touch of the roastier tones and in fact here's my currently chosen grain bill - still working out percentages.

Aiming for an ABV around 7% I've got GW's Beer Engine running via WINE on my Ubuntu PC but it don't appear to working right, can't alter anything, so I'm using another freebie I found called QBrew except it doesn't suggest liquor volumes etc so I reckon I'll be winging this based on mash liquor at 2.5 times the grain bill weight.

Maris Otter
Munich malt
Special B
Pale Crystal - got pale due to a miss-order on my part, clicking in the wrong box.
Chocolate malt
Torrified wheat

Black malt - cold steeped.

Hops, lots of but still deciding on a melange (no quantities yet) of:

Target - 90 mins

EKG - 45 mins

EKG, Fuggles and/or Styrian Goldings steeped at 80c

I think I am going to call this Corbeau, the French word for Crow as that's how black I want this.

Wide open as usual to all suggestions, ideas and any definite NO!!! WTF ARE YOU THINKING's

masterosouffle · Post by **masterosouffle** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:48 pm

I wouldn't use black malt for a black IPA, you will still get quite a lot of roasts note from it, most recommend carafa special 2 or 3, I will be using 325g of special 2 cold steeped for 24hrs in the black IPA that I'll be making Tuesday.
They really are great when done well and if you want a commercial one to try have a look out for the Kernal's, it's incredible.
As for hops if you have any of the real powerful ones from the west coast of the states they really suit this style, as well as Cascade for obvious reasons

stevetk189 · Post by **stevetk189** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:55 pm

Bugger, I have none of the above

I do have roasted barley, would that substitute the black malt?

leedsbrew · Post by **leedsbrew** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:07 pm

I have used the cold steep and it produced the desired result with carafa! I have also had a BIPA done with black malt and the different is negligable at best. I would have no worries using plain black malt from now on!

Make sure you strain the cold steeped grain through a pair of tights or muslin as some of the small particles will go through a sieve and into the boil! that or add the cold steeped fluid and grains to the mash tun when sparging!

Also make sure you account for the volume of cold steeped liqour in your total volume in the HLT!

jimp2003 · Post by **jimp2003** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:09 pm

For my black IPA I don't cold steep the carafa 2 and it gives a nice addition of slight roastiness (see the review of it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeOr0-IRqps

. I think cold steeping the black malt would be fine. I would not include chocolate malt or you might be heading for a porter rather than a black IPA.

I also think this style needs the strong US hops but that does not mean that your version will not be a very good beer. Do you have any other hops other than the ones you have mentioned?

Jim

stevetk189 · Post by **stevetk189** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:25 pm

Cheers leedsbrew and Jim, all noted. I'll ditch the choc.

Good to hear I can go with the black malt, rough idea of quantity anyone? I was looking in the region of 250g but then guessing on the amount of water...

@Jim, hops currently in my stock:

Fuggles, Bobek, Challenger, EKG, H Mittlefruh, Bramling Cross, Target, Cascade

alix101 · Post by **alix101** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:02 pm

you definitely need carafa 3 and some usa hops or, your just going to end up with a porter. I used special B last night to brew an arrogant bastard...it smells great.

stevetk189 · Post by **stevetk189** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:29 pm

Ok, I'm getting mixed messages on the black malt side of things so i'm going to hang fire, get some carafa 3 and do a split brew to compare the two side by side.

Going to go with Cascade too, I'd forgotten I had those but I do want to retain a Traditional Englishness about it, not just go for an American.

Might be shit, might be great but I'll never know until I've brewed it.

So, any suggestions on quantity to steep and in how much cold water?

masterosouffle · Post by **masterosouffle** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:41 pm

You're the one who's got to drink it, and I'm sure it will be a really nice beer whatever you do.
Use 250-300g cold steeped for 24hrs, this should give you plenty of colour whilst keeping the roastiness down.
It really will be down to personal taste, but the only way to really know what's best is trial and error, I've made a few of these and have made tweaks each time, but I would struggle to tell which one was best...
I'll find this weeks recipe and post it in a moment

stevetk189 · Post by **stevetk189** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:48 pm

masterosouffle wrote:You're the one who's got to drink it, and I'm sure it will be a really nice beer whatever you do.
Use 250-300g cold steeped for 24hrs, this should give you plenty of colour whilst keeping the roastiness down.
It really will be down to personal taste, but the only way to really know what's best is trial and error, I've made a few of these and have made tweaks each time, but I would struggle to tell which one was best...
I'll find this weeks recipe and post it in a moment

Cheers, I'd appreciate seeing your recipe. Would steeping for less than 24 hours get enough colour? I was thinking of maybe just a few hours to begin with.

From what I understand the main reason for using carafa is that it is de-husked and it's the burnt husks that impart the harsh tones. That was my thinking behind the shorter steep time, less chance for the husks to let go of their flavour.

masterosouffle · Post by **masterosouffle** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:54 pm

This is my recipe for this week, it is very much designed to replicate the west coast black IPA / Cascadian dark ales that I really like...
I really don't know what difference the shorter steep would have, i got this info from an American forum, and it worked well so didn't question it i'm afraid

Black IPA -
Ingredient Amount
UK Pale Ale Malt 4.000 kg
UK Munich Malt 1.000 kg
German Carafa Special II 0.350 kg (steeped in 1l cold water for 24hrs)
Sugar - White Sugar/Sucrose 0.500 kg

Hops
Variety Alpha Amount IBU Form When
US Nugget 15.1 % 34 g 57.7 Loose Whole Hops 90 Min From End
US Apollo 19.0 % 50 g 19.6 Loose Whole Hops 5 Min From End
US Nugget 15.1 % 20 g 6.2 Loose Whole Hops 5 Min From End
US Apollo 19.0 % 50 g 0.0 Loose Whole Hops At turn off
US Amarillo 10.0 % 50 g 0.0 Loose Pellet Hops At turn off
US Amarillo 10.0 % 50 g 0.0 Loose Pellet Hops Dry-Hopped

stevetk189 · Post by **stevetk189** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:03 pm

masterosouffle wrote:This is my recipe for this week, it is very much designed to replicate the west coast black IPA / Cascadian dark ales that I really like...
I really don't know what difference the shorter steep would have, i got this info from an American forum, and it worked well so didn't question it i'm afraid

Black IPA -
Ingredient Amount
UK Pale Ale Malt 4.000 kg
UK Munich Malt 1.000 kg
German Carafa Special II 0.350 kg (steeped in 1l cold water for 24hrs)
Sugar - White Sugar/Sucrose 0.500 kg

Hops
Variety Alpha Amount IBU Form When
US Nugget 15.1 % 34 g 57.7 Loose Whole Hops 90 Min From End
US Apollo 19.0 % 50 g 19.6 Loose Whole Hops 5 Min From End
US Nugget 15.1 % 20 g 6.2 Loose Whole Hops 5 Min From End
US Apollo 19.0 % 50 g 0.0 Loose Whole Hops At turn off
US Amarillo 10.0 % 50 g 0.0 Loose Pellet Hops At turn off
US Amarillo 10.0 % 50 g 0.0 Loose Pellet Hops Dry-Hopped

Great stuff, thanks. Going on my husked v de-husked malt thoughts I think I'll cold steep the black malt I've got for 6 hours and check the colour/burnt tastes/aromas if it's looking and smelling ok, I'll carry on steeping up to 12 and check again. I suppose that the drained off, steeped water will keep in the fridge if I was to do this more than 24 hours in advance?

stevetk189 · Post by **stevetk189** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:07 pm

jimp2003 wrote:For my black IPA I don't cold steep the carafa 2 and it gives a nice addition of slight roastiness (see the review of it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeOr0-IRqps . I think cold steeping the black malt would be fine. I would not include chocolate malt or you might be heading for a porter rather than a black IPA.

I also think this style needs the strong US hops but that does not mean that your version will not be a very good beer. Do you have any other hops other than the ones you have mentioned?

Jim

Good reviews of your beers on teh youtubes! Enjoyed watching them and a few of his other reviews. Saltaire's cascade got a glowing review, next time I'm back home in the UK I'm going to be checking out a few of their beers.

jimp2003 · Post by **jimp2003** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:48 pm

Cheers Steve! The Urban Viking is a bloody nice bloke and does some very honest reviews.

For a comparison here is my recipe:

OG: 1.067
FG: 1.016
IBU's: 69.0
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Time: 90 minutes

Grain Bill

Amount Percentage Name Gravity Color
6kg 82.75 % Pale Malt, Maris Otter
500.00 g 6.9% Crystal Malt
750.00 g 10.35% Carafa Special Type 2

Hops
Amount Name Time AA %
30.00 g Columbus 60 mins 15.20
15.00 g Columbus 20 mins 15.20
15.00 g Amarillo 20 mins 8.9
15.00 g Cascade 15 mins 5.9
15.00 g Amarillo 15 mins 8.9
15.00 g Cascade 10 mins 5.9
15.00 g Cascade 5 mins 5.9

Yeast

Whitelabs California Ale WLP001

Its a lot of carafa I know, and used in the mash it brings a lot of character to the party. I think that if you don't get much flavour from adding the roasted malt then you might as well just close your eyes and pretend a regular US IPA is black...

masterosouffle · Post by **masterosouffle** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:50 pm

stevetk189 wrote:
masterosouffle wrote:This is my recipe for this week, it is very much designed to replicate the west coast black IPA / Cascadian dark ales that I really like...
I really don't know what difference the shorter steep would have, i got this info from an American forum, and it worked well so didn't question it i'm afraid

Black IPA -
Ingredient Amount
UK Pale Ale Malt 4.000 kg
UK Munich Malt 1.000 kg
German Carafa Special II 0.350 kg (steeped in 1l cold water for 24hrs)
Sugar - White Sugar/Sucrose 0.500 kg

Hops
Variety Alpha Amount IBU Form When
US Nugget 15.1 % 34 g 57.7 Loose Whole Hops 90 Min From End
US Apollo 19.0 % 50 g 19.6 Loose Whole Hops 5 Min From End
US Nugget 15.1 % 20 g 6.2 Loose Whole Hops 5 Min From End
US Apollo 19.0 % 50 g 0.0 Loose Whole Hops At turn off
US Amarillo 10.0 % 50 g 0.0 Loose Pellet Hops At turn off
US Amarillo 10.0 % 50 g 0.0 Loose Pellet Hops Dry-Hopped
Great stuff, thanks. Going on my husked v de-husked malt thoughts I think I'll cold steep the black malt I've got for 6 hours and check the colour/burnt tastes/aromas if it's looking and smelling ok, I'll carry on steeping up to 12 and check again. I suppose that the drained off, steeped water will keep in the fridge if I was to do this more than 24 hours in advance?

Sounds like a plan, I look forward to hearing how you get on!
I can't see any reason why it won't keep. Are you adding this to the boiler or mash tun? I would think boiler as you don't want to waste colour in the mash...

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