Czech Pilsners

[fatbelly]

Hi All,

Has anyone done an AG Czech Pilsner?

What type of malts should I use and in what amounts (for a 23l Brewlength).
I would imagine I shuld use Saaz hops but again to what degree.

Thanks in advance for any guidance

[greenxpaddy]

Try this thread

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=46810&hilit=+lager

[Aleman]

Has anyone done an AG Czech Pilsner?

What type of malts should I use and in what amounts (for a 23l Brewlength).
I would imagine I shuld use Saaz hops but again to what degree.

Thanks in advance for any guidance

Malt while you can get away with British Lager or Pilsner Malt, it would be more correct to use Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner Malt, and if you want a challenge there is a Floor malted Bohemian pilsner malt that requires step mashing . . . Rob at the Malt Miller is your man

Spot on for hops, it does depend on what 'style' of Bohemian Pilsner' you are going to brew, Something like Budvar Pils is 10 Plato and 30 IBU, Whereas a Urquell style is 12 Plato and 40IBU

This thread on THBF has a lot of information on Bohemian Pilsners, I could repost it here, but people have moaned about cross posting on multiple forums.

If you want more information on Boh Pils do a search on THBF for Bohemian Pilsners and Author = Aleman

[gregorach]

Malt while you can get away with British Lager or Pilsner Malt, it would be more correct to use Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner Malt, and if you want a challenge there is a Floor malted Bohemian pilsner malt that requires step mashing . . . Rob at the Malt Miller is your man

I have my first attempt at a step-mashed Pilsner lagering at the moment... Just used British Pilsner malt though. What's your feeling on the usefulness of a ferulic acid rest for this style of beer? I do think it seems to have resulted in a bit of DMS... (Which was exactly as intended, whether it's entirely "authentic" or not.) The step mash also gave me a much better efficiency than expected.

[gregorach]

I should maybe mention that I did the mash as a kind of bastard hybrid step-infusion / decoction affair - the acid rest at about 43C, then topped up with very hot liquor to bring it up to saccharification temps (about 65), and then a decoction step to take it up to mash-out temps. Not the "right" way to do it, but a bit more manageable than the full 3-step decoction...

[greenxpaddy]

Hmmm, I thought the acid rest was to get the ph down more than anything. Which if you have made your water soft would not normally be essential. I'd have thought the more useful of the rests was the protein rest which you skipped. Just what I recall from the theory...

I'll wait for the chemical theory eagerly as to why an acid rest would give rise to more DMS. I'm sure you are going to tell me!

[Blue Sky]

If it helps any... Pilsner Style Guidlines (from here... BJCP Style Guidelines)

(Pretty sure those guidelines are American though, so some may question their 'authenticity'? )

May aswell add Weyermanns 'Bohemian Lager'... >>HERE<<

[Rookie]

Hi All,

Has anyone done an AG Czech Pilsner?

What type of malts should I use and in what amounts (for a 23l Brewlength).
I would imagine I shuld use Saaz hops but again to what degree.

Thanks in advance for any guidance

The last Czech pilsner I did I used German pils malt, German light munich (about 3%), home grown sterling hops, and WLP800. I did a single infusion at 150f. It turned out pretty good.

[gregorach]

Hmmm, I thought the acid rest was to get the ph down more than anything. Which if you have made your water soft would not normally be essential. I'd have thought the more useful of the rests was the protein rest which you skipped. Just what I recall from the theory...

I'll wait for the chemical theory eagerly as to why an acid rest would give rise to more DMS. I'm sure you are going to tell me!

I honestly can't remember... I know it's used for wheat beers to provide additional precursors for the banana / clove esters, but I'm sure I read something about it increasing DMS as well somewhere... The protein rest would be more useful with an undermodified malt such as the "proper" floor-malted Bohemian pilsner malt, but less so with a British pilsner malt.

[greenxpaddy]

Yep with a wheat beer it breaks down the longer wheat protein chains to help conversion. The acid rest brings the mash ph down to help conversion too. The DMS is practically all driven off with 90 minute boil that is always recommended with a wheat beer. That said I have found with a very high wheat content the fermentation is rather eggy so there must be sulphur compounds still remaining.

[gregorach]

I seem to recall that the ferulic acid provides a precursor which the yeast then converts to DMS during fermentation... (SMM -> DMSO ->DMS, I believe.) Like I say, can't really remember the details and I'm not finding much with a cursory Google. (Lots of stuff about how to reduce DMS...) There was definitely a noticeable DMS element post-fermentation, more than the last time I did a Pils with a single infusion mash.

It'll be at least another month before I can say anything for certain about the final outcome though.

[Aleman]

I must admit that I can't recall the biochemistry involved either, but if you did get a bonus on the DMS then good for you, as it is a required element of the style . . . . Well not so much if your beer ends up stinking of cooked cabbage . .. Hint is good

Actually the important thing to remember is that diacetyl is also a required element of the style, again not a buttery/butterscotch flavour but just takes the edge off the bittering (particularly in a Plzen style) . . . I am quite lucky (sort of) in that I am fairly insensitive to diacetyl, but I can tell when a pilsner is too 'clean' and doens't have enough as the bitterness is 'not harsh' but over the top.

I tend to use the Hochkurz mash schedule now (62C for 30-60 minutes) and 70C (for 60 minutes). The first rest gives beta amylase chance to really get to work on any starch broken down by the alpha amylase, its on the high end of the protease range so some protein digestion takes place, but at that temp the proteases break down fairly quickly. In fact if you extend the 62C rest to 45-60 minutes or more then you get an improved foam stand when pouring the beer. The 70C rest allows the alpha amylase to finish digesting any starch that hasn't been broken down earlier . . . and although it's fairly short lived at this temp Beta Amylase gets a bit of a kick as well.

As far as the acid rest goes, There is a significant pH shift required with an all pils malt (0.4 or 0.5 pH units) which does not happen in a single infusion mash even with a low alkalinity liquor (Although mashing at pH 5.7-5.8 is not necessarily a problem). I 'harden' my low alkalinity water with calcium chloride to help the mash reactions along though

[greenxpaddy]

That's all good news Aleman. Tonight I started with my Bohemian Pilsener. Its come right good. The carbonation is just enough to liven it up but not harsh like forced carbonation. You really can tell the difference. The celeia gives a very nice aroma which is not followed up in flavour. The taste is low key just as I would like a lager. Of course this is compared to the mass market lagers. The flavour is still clean. I did think half way through - am i getting some DMS coming through because there was a very slight vegetable flavour perhaps. So slight I thought maybe I was being paranoid. But I'm pleased to think its good for the style. Also I noted I was getting a nice creamy lasting taste. This i put down to the yeast conditioning but maybe it s a hint of diacetly who knows.

What I can say is I absolutely will never buy commercial lager again after this

[gregorach]

Yeah, I'm not much of a fan of diacetyl, and I do seem quite sensitive for it, so I'm going for more of a Budvar style than Plzen. The DMS is absolutely essential, but yeah, you've got to get it in the right proportions. Tasting so far is very promising for this one.

I wouldn't completely rule out commercial lagers - just the low-end mass-market ones. There are some good lagers out there.

[weiht]

dunc, is it dms or sulphur you are describing? I've never tasted much dms in czech pilsner, but definitely some sulphur in the right proportions like u mentioned.

Yeah, dont let the big guy make u think all commercial lagers are bad. There are still very good ones, just hard to find... like fosters