mash ph high

[paulg]

I have just tested my mash ph after 10 minutes and the ph was a puple colour indicating 6.2 or above
my question is
I tested the water with salfert kit and got 194 (meq 3.88 x 50)
so added crs at .87 ml/litre x 35 litres= 30.67 ml

can anyone see a problem with my maths and what effect on the mash will the high ph cause is it worth continuing with the process?

added dls at 0.7 per litre 9 litres strike water mixed onto mash another 18 grams to be added to boil
batch sparge 27 litres water total pre boil 32 litres

grain bill
2.547 pale malt
0.457 crystal malt
0.457 torrified wheat
0.013 chocolate malt

[Eric]

Not checked precisely but the maths seem right.
What range are you pH strips? They can be difficult to read especially those with a big range. You are right, it shouldn't be pH 6.2.
Edit.. Forgot to add, carry on, even pH 6.2 will get a result but I think that reading is wrong. Take one at the end when the mash would have influenced pH.

[paulg]

just as an update I did check my mash ph at the end it was still high (5.6) however my gravity reading preboil was 1.033
brewmate stated 1.030 and with exactly 23 litres in the fermenter it was 1.040 post boil.
The recipe was for a beer of 1.037
I have even retested my tap water adding .87 ml of crs to 1 litre and my test came out at 22 so near enough to 20
when I tested this water with my litmus paper (4.8 -6.8 range) the reading was below 4.8 as the colour didnt change
the paper is a sort of yellow colour unused is this correct or could they be contaminated in some way
As a matter of interest my first 2 AG brews showed a mash ph of 5.4-5.6 with untreated water though I am certain my water is a high ph
my only problem I had with the recipe came when I needed to add 480 grams invert sugar (golden syrup) and I found the tin was nearly empty SWMBO has been cooking again ,so substituted white sugar to make up the difference about (100 grams)

[Eric]

Long before using CRS to control alkalinity I always measured mash pH. Since being able to measure and adjust my water it has been possible, for most brews, to fairly accurately predict pH and don't always bother now to take a reading.
From what you say, you have control of the alkalinity of your water. My indicator strips cover 4.0 (yellow) to 7.0 (ultramarine??) so by your description, your's should be better.
Can't think before water treatment I got a mash pH readings higher than 6.0 so how you got 6.3 baffles me. Anyway all you can do now is keep that record and see what happens next time. It seems all else has gone well and the 100 gm of sugar is nothing of concern.

[crookedeyeboy]

It isnt the CRS lowering the pH. Its all about calcium. If you use salts in the mash you will buffer the mash pH therefore lowering it.
Try adding some calcium chloride flake and calcium sulphate, trust me this will lower your mash pH giving you a far better extract.
Its common myth that adding acid lowers the mash pH. Acid treatment is for flavour profiling and removing harshness.

[paulg]

thank for your reply crookedeyeboy
so if its not the crs which I can except, my next question is would not dls at the rate of 0.7 per litre correct this

my theory being
194ppm x 0.4=77.6 from brupaks website
A typical Bitter requires a calcium content of 180-220 p.p.m, so I need to add 102-142 ppm from website http://www.brupaks.com/brewing-aids.htm I need 0.7 gr/lt to add 125 ppm
so
added dls at 0.7 per litre in 9 litres = 9.7 grams strike water mixed onto mash
then another 18 grams (sparge water) 0.7 x 26 to be added to boil
I have noticed that the website says mix the dls into dry grains I must admit I just poured them in the jug after the pale malt and before I added the torrified wheat and chocolate malt them doughed in to the mash tun liqour
could this be the problem
or could someone explain the diffence with adding calcium chloride flakes and calcium sulfate as I assumed this was what dls was

[Eric]

It isnt the CRS lowering the pH. Its all about calcium. If you use salts in the mash you will buffer the mash pH therefore lowering it.
Try adding some calcium chloride flake and calcium sulphate, trust me this will lower your mash pH giving you a far better extract.
Its common myth that adding acid lowers the mash pH. Acid treatment is for flavour profiling and removing harshness.

I'd like some help on this too. I'm fine with low mineral content water needing additional calcium and great caution to add any acid. However, I struggle to comprehend why a water so heavily loaded with calcium bicarbonate that naturally gives a mash pH of 6.0, should be made to retain its high alkalinity while adding extra calcium chloride and or calcium sulphate. Your claim can be right, CRS doesn't lower mash pH, for it should never reach the mash and if it does you've overdosed. However, will not water treatment with CRS convert high volumes of carbonate bases to sulphate and chloride salts thus producing those very additions you claim are necessary to reduce pH while at the very same time eradicate any excessive alkaline buffering capacity?
Is it not that acid treatment can convert bases to salts to profile flavours and reduce harshness?

[Scooby]

My guess is that you test strips are old, got damp or something as it seems you have done everything by the book, and you exceeded you expected OG.

My understanding is that when you remove carbonate ie lower alkalinity the calcium remains the same but as pointed out sulphate and chloride levels rise.
My water has an alkalinity of 224 and after carbonated reduction I add calcium which I do as additions of sulphate and chloride. You are doing that as your
right DLS is a mix of them.

[paulg]

scooby what colour are ph papers when new mine are a sort of yellow colour,I have had them about 3 months stored on my garage used for 3 brews my first AG ones
Is a ph meter worthwhile I have seen different reports on them
as I previous mentioned my first 2 AGbrews the water was untreated and the mash was much nearer to correct 5.4-5.6
the first beer was batemans mild ,2nd youngs special both from g wheeler book
I tasted the wort post boil from my trial jar it was sweet but with a bit of a bitter after taste I dont know if this a result of the high mash or my recipe which was ibu 35 there was some cold break material in the jar as well

[Scooby]

Mine are Vinoferm 3.8-5.5 yellow/green to blue with the indicator part being a sort of fern green. I was getting low (4.8-4.9) readings
from a pack that I kept in the garage. I got a new lot of the same and only noticed then that the indicator part of the old ones had
changed to a yellow colour. The new ones gave me a reading of 5.2-5.5 with the same water treatment.

I thought about a meter when I had problems and did some research like you. I came to the conclusion that the expense and maintenance of a decent
one wasn't worth it.

I think brewing with water that has a high residual alkalinity can result in the mash having a high pH if the recipe is all pale malts, roast dark malt have
acidity that will lower the mash pH. Calcium additions in the mash lowers the the mash pH so your untreated brew is puzzling.

Afaik high pH 6+ can lower mash efficiency due to incomplete conversion, effect hop utilisation and can cause tannins to be extracted. The bitter taste
you mention could be tannins but it I don't think it's worth worrying about. I'd carry on and see what it's like when it's fermented.

[crookedeyeboy]

It isnt the CRS lowering the pH. Its all about calcium. If you use salts in the mash you will buffer the mash pH therefore lowering it.
Try adding some calcium chloride flake and calcium sulphate, trust me this will lower your mash pH giving you a far better extract.
Its common myth that adding acid lowers the mash pH. Acid treatment is for flavour profiling and removing harshness.

I'd like some help on this too. I'm fine with low mineral content water needing additional calcium and great caution to add any acid. However, I struggle to comprehend why a water so heavily loaded with calcium bicarbonate that naturally gives a mash pH of 6.0, should be made to retain its high alkalinity while adding extra calcium chloride and or calcium sulphate. Your claim can be right, CRS doesn't lower mash pH, for it should never reach the mash and if it does you've overdosed. However, will not water treatment with CRS convert high volumes of carbonate bases to sulphate and chloride salts thus producing those very additions you claim are necessary to reduce pH while at the very same time eradicate any excessive alkaline buffering capacity?
Is it not that acid treatment can convert bases to salts to profile flavours and reduce harshness?

Hi Eric

Yes youre right, the CRS (AMS) does reduce the carbonate down to sulphate and chloride but trust me, at a maximum it is only about 20ppm. I carry out hundreds of liquor analysis tests for micros, I always start with AMS to reduce the alklainity then work on the calcium with DWB or Flake n Gypsum.

On a homebrew level people generally under treat the mash. For a liquor with about 20ppm of calcium in you need at least 20g of DWB, 200ppm is the magic number for calcium, this helps protect enzymes, buffer the mash, precipitate protein in the boil and even make yeast cell walls stickier. I cannot emphasie enough how important calcium is.

[Eric]

.................CRS (AMS) does reduce the carbonate down to sulphate and chloride but trust me, at a maximum it is only about 20ppm. I carry out hundreds of liquor analysis tests for micros, I always start with AMS to reduce the alklainity then work on the calcium with DWB or Flake n Gypsum.

On a homebrew level people generally under treat the mash. For a liquor with about 20ppm of calcium in you need at least 20g of DWB, 200ppm is the magic number for calcium, this helps protect enzymes, buffer the mash, precipitate protein in the boil and even make yeast cell walls stickier. I cannot emphasie enough how important calcium is.

Thanks, nicely put.

[crookedeyeboy]

No worried Eric, Im always glad to shed light on this subject as it is soooooooooo over analysed. Its quite simple really...lower the alkalinity and raise the calcium!
The rest is incidental and down to taste!

[paulg]

i have tried to check my litmus paper as I wondered if they were contaminated giving me false readings
I got a reading of 198 ppm when I tested my tap water with safert kit so I guess my water is high ph the test papers turned puple indicating ph 6.2 or more
I then tested brupaks crs solution and this gave a reading of 5.4 on the papers has anyone ever tried the ph of crs I assumed as it lowered the alcalinity it would be a low ph reading as we aim for 5.2 in mash
I am wondering if the papers are reading high

[Scooby]

CRS is a mix of acids so shouldn't it be off the low end of the scale not 5.4

You seem to have been methodical in your water treatment so my money is still on faulty papers.