to sparge or not to sparge that is the question

[akka lakka]

hi, i have been reading brewing books on hols and i am struggling with mash out. I normally mash in 10 gall igloo tub at 66c and trickle with rose above grains at 80c,but mashout is supposed to be 78c but temp of grain bed still 66c. i would have to have sparge water almost boiling to get grain bed to 78c, so i thought about the no sparge method. Here is my plan. Heat mash water, 3 and a quarter gall in hlt and at same time heat same amount in boiler. Then recirculate at 66c for 1 hour between mashtun and boiler. Then, after 1 hour increase temp of boiler to 78c,then pump straight to boiler. I would be using 2 solar pumps, my boiler is well insolated. Do you brewers think it will work?. Any advice please. P.s the books i have been reading are how to brew by john j palmer and brewing better beer by gorden strong.

[daz c]

what problems are you having when sparging.I fly sparge from my hlt with water heated to 80c , i never measure the temp when it hits the grain bed but always manage a good extraction.

[Kev888]

Hi,
people do it differently, if they do it at all, but mashout is a process of raising the temperature of the mash at the end; its really a separate issue to sparging - you can do whats essentially a mashout in no-sparge/full-volume mashes as well as before traditional sparging methods. The extra heat can make washing out the malty goodness easier, and it also raises the temperature enough to stop enzyme activity and so stop the sugar profiles changing after the mash. Depending on your setup and approach, you can either do it by infusion (adding more, hotter water), decoction (taking some out, heating it and returning it), or by heating the mash live (either directly or through a RIMS or HERMs).

If i'm understanding correctly, you're proposing a sort of crude RIMs. In principle it would work, but in practice there'd be some challenges to get over first - such as controlling the element/heat and flow so as not to over heat the wort or have the element/boiler go dry (especially if the runoff sticks), and not loosing too much heat in the round trip - even though the boiler is insulated theres going to be a lot more surface area to loose heat by. You may also need to add liquor during the mashout to keep the grain suspended, if the boiler demands a reasonable amount in it to cover an element for example. But if you could sort that sort of practical issue then it could work out.

I'd like to do a mashout but usually i don't because of the effort involved (with my setup and larger brew lengths) vs the benefits - I will when I get a rims system set up, but for now its a lot of work and is more of a refinement than a necessity. If your mash is of normal stiffness then a normal sparge alone will be almost as good at getting the malty goodness out, and the boiler will bring the wort to enzyme-stopping temperatures before too long, even if the sparge doesn't (I find that my grain bed does get to >74c in the sparge, but only towards the end when much of the wort has already been run off).

Cheers
kev

[akka lakka]

thanks for replies,i have been doing ok with my sparge system but i want to try the recirculation method to see how it goes. I have took on board temp losses and controlling heating element.i use a triac controller for element and i can control the flow rate of circulation.I know its a lash up using boiler to keep mash temp at 66c but both mashtun and boiler are well insulated with only short tubing between them.If it does not work i will still have my normal system to go back to but i will have learned about recirculation pitfalls. thanks for info

[akka lakka]

hi all, i have tried the recirculation mash by using boiler to heat mash and then pump back to mashtun.Well i did cheat i mashed in the normal way then went on a quote for work,then had breakfast.So mashed for 2 hours,anyway i heated rest of hot liquor in boiler to 66c and recirculated,i could not get the boiler hot enough to get to mash out in mashtun to 76c without raising boiler above 80c,but on the good side i could keep mashtun at 66c and grain bed floating and crystal clear so i am chuffed with that.i am going to get another solar pump and try again.My only concern is using 3kw for an hour to mash.

[charliefarley]

I use a standard 1.7L kettle with a heat exchanger inside driven by a pid and can raise mash temp by 1C a minute.

Having said that garysmith posted an interesting link the other week about cold water sparging. IIRC the gist of it was that once sugars are in solution, they are not going to separate again so hotter liquid to mash out with will not "rinse the grains of sugars" any better than cold water. The conversion from starch to sugars is complete fairly early on.
I think that's what he was saying anyway and it sounds pretty plausible to me.

[charliefarley]

Here you go:
http://braukaiser.com/lifetype2/index.p ... 9&blogId=1

[akka lakka]

thanks for replies,dont think i will be doing a cold sparge but thanks for interesting info.From what i can gather i do not have to worry about mash out so i will concentrate on recirculation for clarity and no sparge,today's brew came in at 4% as per recipe so i will see what it tastes like next week.

[orlando]

what problems are you having when sparging.I fly sparge from my hlt with water heated to 80c , i never measure the temp when it hits the grain bed but always manage a good extraction.

I heat the HLT to 80c and fly sparge. The temp of liquour exiting the arm is circa 75c and the grain bed is circa 68c. I have done iodine tests on 1/2 dozen brews and it has always shown a complete conversion. I've read that with the well modified grains these days complicated mash procedures are lagely unnecessary and that stuff like decoction mashes was mainly because old fashioned malting methods meant grains (particularly continental Europe) needed this method to obtain a more efficient extraction. As far as I can see the imperatives of economy in commercial brewers is what drives efficient mashing but for us more humble brewers an extra handful of grain is neither here nor there. I'm not concerned about raising my mash efficiency from say 75-80% as it will mean little advantage other than the possible geeky satisfaction of being able to do it. Wort clarity however is something else again but this has more to do with recirculation than mashing.

Have I missed the point, I'm still very new at all this?

[akka lakka]

hi, i nomally fly sparge but i wanted to try the recirculation method for a change i think i will mash for 1 hour with my 6 and half gallon all in mash tun and recirculate for half hour then pump straight to boiler,as i was thinking about charliefarley post saying once conversion has taken place it does not matter if wort loses a couple of degrees whilst reciculating in mashtun.its all good fun as long as we get a decent pint at the end of the day.cheers