Do high alpha acid hops work for you?

[guypettigrew]

Having tried a few brews using high alpha acid hops for bittering, they don't seem to suit me.

Apollo, Stella and even Citra (when used for bittering), leave an astringent and tart taste in my mouth. On the front of my tongue, to be precise! This isn't nice. This taste is appearing increasingly frequently in commercial beers, interestingly.

At the moment I'm comparing two almost inedentical beers. Both brewed to just below 1.050, both with IBUs of about 36. The one using Fuggles and Golding for bittering seems far better to my palate than the one using Stella and Pioneer.

Using lower alpha acid hops in greater quantities appears, at the moment, to be the best way of bittering beers.

Any views?

Guy

[roonikins]

yeah your spot on . have been blending high alpha hops with combinations of old hops and low alpha now for a couple of years and i've just gone back to fuggles and challenger
and the like . i suppose that when it comes down to it high alpha hops are grown for reasons of economy for commercial brewers, because it certainly isnt for flavour

[kebabman]

I'm just wondering if its the taste of the modern high alpha hops that you don't like, may be you don't like say an upfront citrussy taste?
The reason I say this is firstly that a 100% citra brew I did at a far higher IBU to OG ratio than you brew at didn't taste bitter at all just very pineappley. Secondly for my brewing setup if I brewed a 1050 OG beer at an IBU of 36 my tastebuds would be struggling to find any bitterness at all, but that is dependant on personal taste and brewing setup.
If you prefer fuggles and goldings that's fine, they were the main hops I used many decades ago when I first started home brewing.
Dave Line RIP!

[guypettigrew]

Citrussy is good. I achieve it by dry hopping with Citra or adding Citra late in the boil.

It's the astringent "zing" which comes with the high alpha acid hops which doesn't suit me.

Bitterness is good, but not when it numbs your tongue!

Guy

[Dennis King]

I brewed one beer using just Citra at various stages. Although I really liked the beer next time I used Challenger as the bittering hops and Citra as late additions. The result was a more balanced beer than the first one.

[guypettigrew]

Some challenger are due to arrive with me in the next couple of days. I'll try the Challenger/Citra combo. It sounds like a good idea.

Guy

[critch]

think youll find its the high cohumulone levels.just brewed with stella, amazing pineapple/ tropical fruit flavour. total stinging evil bitterness. now ive got a lot of customers who love this sort of thing, so itll sell and its still full of yeast so itll mellow by the time its dropped, but by fek its powerfull , seing i hardly bloody added any hops(officially 20 ibus in a 4.1 beer!) i and what i did i late and dry hopped with nearly 9/10ths of em!

do use lots of 'em, normally at flame out though!

[guypettigrew]

So, Critch, are you saying high alpha hops are better if they aren't boiled for the full 90 minutes?

Guy

[barney]

think youll find its the high cohumulone levels.just brewed with stella, amazing pineapple/ tropical fruit flavour. total stinging evil bitterness. now ive got a lot of customers who love this sort of thing, so itll sell and its still full of yeast so itll mellow by the time its dropped, but by fek its powerfull , seing i hardly bloody added any hops(officially 20 ibus in a 4.1 beer!) i and what i did i late and dry hopped with nearly 9/10ths of em!

do use lots of 'em, normally at flame out though!

I have just done the same thing but with 31Ibu bittered at 30,15,5

Rips the bleeding enamel off your teeth.

Brew dog stylee.

[gregorach]

I think this might be more down to the variety than the AA% as such... I have noticed this with some high-AA hops like Citra, but not so much with others such as Herkules.

[Dave S]

I'm just wondering if its the taste of the modern high alpha hops that you don't like, may be you don't like say an upfront citrussy taste?
The reason I say this is firstly that a 100% citra brew I did at a far higher IBU to OG ratio than you brew at didn't taste bitter at all just very pineappley. Secondly for my brewing setup if I brewed a 1050 OG beer at an IBU of 36 my tastebuds would be struggling to find any bitterness at all, but that is dependant on personal taste and brewing setup.
If you prefer fuggles and goldings that's fine, they were the main hops I used many decades ago when I first started home brewing.
Dave Line RIP!

I 'grew up' with Dave Line too, a pioneer to be sure. One thing that still puzzles me though, and I've mentioned this in a previous thread, the hop rates, even for Goldings/Fuggles in Dave's recipes were way higher than most we see these days - typically in excess of 100-120 grams in a 25l brew. Most recipes nowadays are pushing it at 60 grams. One theory offered was the poor way in which hops were kept back then, requiring greater quantities for a given bitterness. While that might be a contributory factor, the disparity still seems very big to me.

Any thoughts on this?

[kebabman]

Yup I was wondering about this too.
The long closed home brewshop, where I used to get the hops from, just used to get them from out the back, may be not kept under vacuum or even cold and I don't think the year of harvest was ever mentioned either.
I was thinking of doing a fuggles and goldings brew for old times sake, Maybe I'll have to play with beer engine first to get my IBU's right for todays hops.

[Dave S]

Yup I was wondering about this too.
The long closed home brewshop, where I used to get the hops from, just used to get them from out the back, may be not kept under vacuum or even cold and I don't think the year of harvest was ever mentioned either.
I was thinking of doing a fuggles and goldings brew for old times sake, Maybe I'll have to play with beer engine first to get my IBU's right for todays hops.

Or maybe try one using Dave's quantities to see if the perceived bitterness is over-the-top or not. Might do that some time.

[orlando]

There is an exceptionally good BeerSmith YouTube video with a hop grower that sheds some surprising light on the whole subject. Prepare yourself for some standard practises to be challenged.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qD17ZeT ... digest_sun

[Dave S]

That was a very interesting video. Plenty of food for thought, particularly regarding the rapid deterioration due to oxygen and light. I have some left over hops from previous brews which I think I will just bin.