Lacking hops/bitterness - water treatment?

[techtone]

All my batches have been great and clear really well but it has been a while since I had a really hoppy/bitter beer despite increasing the amount of early and late hops.

I put a post in "hops area" about not getting much from 150g of cascade in 23l but didn't really get any answers.

My latest batch should have had 95 IBU according to brewmate. The style charts suggest this should be way over for most styles but it wasn't particularly bitter at all. Alcohol was about 4.5%

My hops are from worcesterhopshop, vacuum sealed and kept in freezer.

Is there anything I might have missed. I have never done any water treatment as I never felt the need but could this be what I am missing and can it really make that much difference?

I use Nottingham yeast. I am aware of dry hopping but want to check if there is a problem first. I mash at 66C.

I have had a couple of batches that broke this rule but I can't identify why they were different and they were over 2 years ago.

[Wolfy]

Beer lacking hop flavor and aroma is different from that lacking bitterness, it's hard to work out which you are having a problem with. In theory a 95IBU beer might not have much hop flavour/aroma if all the hops are added at the start of the boil, so the solution could be to move more of your hop additions to later in the boil.
As a quick and simple 'water treatment experiment' you could try to 'Burtonise' your water, simply by adding about 1 tablespoon of gypsum and seeing if that comes closer to the result you are looking for.

[Jim]

What are you beer like (bitterness wise) compared to commercial brews?

[alix101]

Humm, bitterness or aroma? if you boiled 20g of cascaded for 60/90 min your beer would IMHO be bitter enough. post the recipe and additions it will get you your answer.

[techtone]

Here is a recent batch hop additions in a pale/amber ale. I was hoping for a wow factor and although nice, it just had a subtle hoppiness flavour to it and not very bitter. Brewmate suggests 95.3 IBU which according to the chart is completely off the scale for everything except an Imperial IPA or an American Barleywine.

In terms of a commercial beer, I would compare it to a typical average not particularly bitter ale.

90 minutes
Citra 35g (14.5% Alpha)

20 minutes
Citra 30g
Cascade 20g (7.8 Alpha)

5 minutes
cascade 20g

at 80C
Citra 35g
Cascade 15g

[Matt12398]

I don't have a problem with carbonate because I live in a very soft water area but I understand that this hardness can have an effect on the hop character of the beer. Do you live in a hard water area?

Someone else with more experience of water treatment might be able to confirm or discount what I've said.

[techtone]

I don't have a problem with carbonate because I live in a very soft water area but I understand that this hardness can have an effect on the hop character of the beer. Do you live in a hard water area?

Someone else with more experience of water treatment might be able to confirm or discount what I've said.

Only moderately hard AFAIK. I did partially filter up to 50:50 in the past but didn't feel any need to continue doing that. Don't know if the two batches that were particularly bitter were from that time.

[darkonnis]

Tests show that it is difficult to get over 50IBU's with hops at the 60 minute mark. Infact you're banging your head against a brickwall even trying according to a BYOM article. You need to really get in there with the 30/15minute hops to get a noticeable rise. Calculators dont take this into account. Do you dry hop? I dry hop with about 4/6grams per litre of beer and it smells epic. what do you mash at? and what yeast is it you use? Reason I ask is because the hop flavours might be hiding behind a rather malty taste.
May be worth getting some centenial and doing a SMASH recipe, go to town with 160g in the boiler and 100g dry hop. If that doesnt give you some hoppiness then I don't know what will!
Cooky

[guypettigrew]

Tests show that it is difficult to get over 50IBU's with hops at the 60 minute mark. Infact you're banging your head against a brickwall even trying according to a BYOM article. You need to really get in there with the 30/15minute hops to get a noticeable rise. Calculators dont take this into account. Do you dry hop? I dry hop with about 4/6grams per litre of beer and it smells epic. what do you mash at? and what yeast is it you use? Reason I ask is because the hop flavours might be hiding behind a rather malty taste.
May be worth getting some centenial and doing a SMASH recipe, go to town with 160g in the boiler and 100g dry hop. If that doesnt give you some hoppiness then I don't know what will!
Cooky

Hi Darkonnis

Interesting! I thought you didn't get much bitterness from hops when they are added late in the boil. Are you saying the 30/15 minute hop addition will add more bitterness than 90 minute hops?

As you can tell, I'm a bit confused.

Also, your dry hop rate is fascinating. This means you use 115 grams in a 23 litre brew. Wow! I've never used more than 30g. Serious wimp, me!

Guy

[darkonnis]

Sorry I should have been a bit more clear. Basically put, there is a maximum amount of absorption. This maximum reduces the longer the hops are in, the suspected cause is that the AA boil off over a long time (takes a while but it DOES happen) meaning that no matter how many hops are used, a maximum IBU of 50 can be gained from any hops added at the 60 minute or before mark. (apparently, this is BYOM tests) hops that are added later on can be used to break this maximum and exceed it quite substantially, however to do this you have to limit the boil time of that particular hop. This is why breweries like brewdog claim they use 35x the amount of hops normally used to brew (i suspect this is a slight exaggeration, but not by much), I haven't tried these things myself, but I have tried adding large amounts over the course of the brew and got a relatively hoppy beer (think punk IPA + a bit) If you want to switch for comparisons sake, PM me.

[techtone]

Tests show that it is difficult to get over 50IBU's with hops at the 60 minute mark. Infact you're banging your head against a brickwall even trying according to a BYOM article. You need to really get in there with the 30/15minute hops to get a noticeable rise. Calculators dont take this into account. Do you dry hop? I dry hop with about 4/6grams per litre of beer and it smells epic. what do you mash at? and what yeast is it you use? Reason I ask is because the hop flavours might be hiding behind a rather malty taste.
May be worth getting some centenial and doing a SMASH recipe, go to town with 160g in the boiler and 100g dry hop. If that doesnt give you some hoppiness then I don't know what will!
Cooky

So I reached a theoretical limit of Bitterness and it had almost no bitterness to it. Sounds a bit strange to me. I should be getting 35 IBU from the 20 and 5 minute hop additions alone.

I mentioned the yeast and mash temp in the opening post. (Nottingham and 66)

Think I will try a different supplier for hops and see if that makes a difference and dump the Bairds MO at the same time as that seems to be causing all sorts of problems.

[darkonnis]

well I havent input your recipe into a brew calc, i thought you said you where expecting 95 IBUs from a 60min hop addition which is why i mentioned it, if you're not then it likely isnt the problem. Tomorrow when i have a bit more time ill try and find the article for you in any case as its worth a listen.

[bigrichlock]

Techtone,

All software use formulas that are wildly inaccurate to calculate potential IBU's and EBC/SRM's, take them as a guide only.

My advice is to get your hands on water report for your area, and look at some very basic water treatment first, try and emulate a known area like Burton or a brewery that produces hoppy/bitter beers.

Then try mashing at a lower temp maybe 64, not to much crystal malt. Look at getting 50% of ur IBU's from the last 30mins of the boil. Use a really attenuative yeast, the idea being to leave the beer with a dryer finish again trying to give the hops and bitterness room to stand out.

Google a clone recipe for Pliny the elder, that's a 90ibu beer and have a look how many hops are in that!

As for changing hop supplier, maybe but i have never had a problem with hops from their, guess most hops prob all come from Charles farm anyhow? are the hops the 2011 crop?

As for grain Thomas Fawcett is arguably one of, if not the beast grain suppliers at the moment.

Before worrying about advanced/the latest thinking on hop utalisations, AA isomerisation levels and the like, just concentrate on perfecting the basics, water being one of them failing that lots more hops

Good luck.