Extract brews taste less bitter and are more balanced

[Steve B]

Recently I noticed that my A/G bitters tended to be more bitter than anticipated. They still taste good - but are somewhat harsh. I recently did the same recipe but used malt extract - the result was much better balanced.

I'm cheesed off by this! Extract brews cost a lot more than A/G when you've made the kit.

My thoughts so far are either I'm missing something in my water treatment (I use crs to reduce my alkalinity from 123 to about 30 using about 0.6ml/litre and a spoonful of gypsum in the mash and copper) or I'm over sparging.

Any suggestions gratefully accepted!

[yorkbrewer]

Just a couple of thoughts about mash/sparge temperature. If the mash is on the hot side (up around 70degC) then you might not be getting as many dextrins in conversion because of beta-amylase deactivating (although I'm not 100% sure it works that way), and therefore most of your sugars would be fermentable and there'd be little residual sweetness/mouth-feel (which could make it taste more bitter). Also if you're sparging up around 80degC then you could be breaking down husk material which causes astringent, mouth-drying flavours, which I suppose are a bit similar to bitterness. If you're mashing at 65-66degC and sparging at 75-78degC, then I'm out of ideas..

[50quidsoundboy]

i thought a high mash temp resulted in a sweeter, less fermentable wort..?

[gregorach]

i thought a high mash temp resulted in a sweeter, less fermentable wort..?

Yes, that's it.

Every extract I've used in the past has had comparatively low fermentability - I'm pretty sure they're formulated with the expectation that you'll be providing around 50% of the fermentables as sucrose.

If balance is the issue, then there are several possible solutions. Firstly, you could simply reduce your bitterness by adding less hops. Or you could increase the finishing gravity by mashing a couple of degrees hotter - although the effectiveness of this does depend somewhat on which yeast you're using. Or you could simply up the starting gravity by using more grain...

If, on the other hand, the problem is astringency, then you need to look at your sparging.

[Capped]

My twopenn'orth.... water treatment is,has and always will be a blind spot of mine; I just can't get my head around it. I was adding CRS as a matter of routine but was getting a distinct harshness. Took me ages to suspect that was the cause, but the idea eventually came to skip water treatment except for the mandatory Campden. Result - not a hint of harshness and wonderfully smooth beer. It would appear that the water which comes out my tap is just right for the type of beer I like and needs no fiddling with. Worth trying?

[Steve B]

Thanks for all your observations & suggestions. I tend to mash on the high side anyway as I like a beer that is a little sweet, so I don't think its that. I'll try the other suggestions one by one til I crack it! I'll start by dropping my sparge temp and see what that produces.

Thanks!

Steve

[CestrIan]

I think capper's made a good point. My mate was adding crs to his water that he had tested out of the tap. He then boiled his water to get rid of chlorine and added the right amount of crs, but he had removed the temporary hardness by boiling so was over dosing with crs.

Hope that makes sense. I think the trick with crs is to test your water first with a salifert kit, then add the crs, then retest with the kit to see if you got it right. Overdosing gives a harsh bitterness.

Also try dropping the alkalinity to 50ppm instead of 30ppm for bitters and pale ales and try adding a couple of teaspoons of calcium chloride instead of gypsum to the mash.

[guypettigrew]

This isn't the liquor forum but, what the heck!

I've been adding CRS to my liquor for ages, following the use of a Salifert test kit and the calculations on the Brupak site.

This week I sent some water off to Murphy's for their liquor analysis.

The result and the recomendations are fascinating. No CRS treatment and just 75% of the DWS I've been using, all mixed in with the grain.

When I asked about my long time use of CRS and the possible effect on the finished beer, Paul at Murphy's told me astringency was one of the possible effects of using more CRS than neccessary. Astringency is something I notice and have (perhaps wrongly) put down to errors in sparging or hop utilisation. Astounding!

Next brew will follow the Murphy's recommendations and I'll see what happens.

Guy

[TC2642]

Just to give the other side, I've been using CRS for a while now and it has helped reduce the harshness I used to get and since I make mostly hoppy ales it's been a plus to me. I don't use it when I'm making a dark beer though, I rely on the malts to ofset the water hardness.

[Steve B]

Just an update - my last 2 brews have been made using Tesco Ashbeck water & a pinch of gypsum in the mash and in the boil. No harsh bitterness & good overall balance. I'm going to use my Salifert more often - it might be that there are some significant variations from the Water Suppliers figures.

[keith1664]

You may well be right, according to Anglian Water my hardness is 345 mg/l CaCo3, a Salifert kit usually has it around 256. I choose to trust the Salifert kit at the moment though I do intend at some point to check my mash ph to double check.

[Steve B]

My area is Anglian, too. The water hardness on their yearly report for my area (Near Wellingborough and Rushden, Northants) has changed significantly from last years figures to this ones. I wonder how much variation there is at any one time from the official figure?

[Eric]

Very interesting, a similar occurance here. For two years my water had an alkalinity of 240 ppm CaCO3 or more but earlier this year I found myself overdosing with CRS. It settled a little and in August I had a reading of 224 but just 2 weeks since it was down to 108 and on Sunday gone it was just 71. I've asked Northumbrian Water if this is a permanent change and have yet to receive an answer. I seem to think I had read somewhere, here maybe, that water companies had been required to reduce hardness in certain waters but it could be my imagination.
Anyone with an explanation?

[Steve B]

I'm also starting to wonder if I'm reading Anglian's figures correctly. They refer to 'drinking water hardness' as 299 mg/l calcium carbonate or as 119.6 mg/l calcium but also in the more detailed section refer to 'Alkalinity' as 177 mg/l ( last year 123) CaC03.

I've always assumed it's the 'Alkalinity' figure of currently 177mg/l CaC03 I should be looking at - I'd be really grateful if someone could confirm I've got that right! Should I have been using the 'hardness' figure instead??

[Eric]

You've got it right. However, the figures water companies supply from their sample readings can be misleading.