Effect of mashing with too much water

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Re: Effect of mashing with too much water

Post by guypettigrew » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:42 pm

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:18 pm
If your water has Alkalinity that needs to be addressed via acidifying and/or via weighing it against the acidity of the grist, and you mash in twice your normal volume of water, you are also mashing in twice the amount of Alkalinity that needs to be addressed.
Bit lost here! Surely alkalinity is measured in parts per million. Using twice as much water won't change this. I clearly need educating!

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Re: Effect of mashing with too much water

Post by orlando » Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:09 am

Bibinimis wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:26 pm
My understanding of this subject is abysmal but I have just established that the average ph level in my water supply is 7.39
Then you can do little better than to start here. Where you will learn that the pH of your starting water isn't important, it's the pH of your mash that counts.
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Re: Effect of mashing with too much water

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:35 pm

guypettigrew wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:42 pm
Bit lost here! Surely alkalinity is measured in parts per million. Using twice as much water won't change this. I clearly need educating!

Guy
Chemical reactions occur on an 'equivalent' weights basis. Twice the volume of water with (for example) 100 ppm Alkalinity means twice the weight of extant Alkalinity, despite still being 100 ppm.

Example for 100 ppm (mg/L) Alkalinity (as CaCO3) and 15 vs. 30 Liters of water:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

100 mg/L x 15L = 1,500 mg of Alkalinity present within the water in the 'nominal' (as opposed to actual) form of CaCO3.

100 mg/L x 30L = 3,000 mg of Alkalinity present within the in the 'nominal' (as opposed to actual) form of CaCO3.

3 grams (3,000 mg) is twice as much Alkalinity as 1.5 grams (1,500 mg). And clearly what matters is the weight difference. The grist weight (let's call it chemical reactant #1) is fixed and not changing, but the Alkalinity (let's call it chemical reactant #2) has doubled in weight. To keep things on an even keel would require doubling the weight of the grist.

Another thing to ponder is that ppm is a weight per million parts of weight measure, whereas mg/L is a weight per unit of volume measure. These two means of measure are clearly not the same thing, despite an overall insistence that they are the same.
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Re: Effect of mashing with too much water

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:48 pm

The above is the reason why ppm (and ditto mg/L) is an abysmally terrible way to ideally represent a so-called "water profile". If one person mashes in half of their water and sparges with the other half, while another person is following the exact same recipe and water profile, from the exact same book, while making the exact same final beer volume, albeit doing so via the no-sparge method, the second person has not only exposed his/her fixed weight of grist to twice the weight of Alkalinity, but also to twice the weight of calcium, magnesium, etc... And (just as for Alkalinity) calcium and magnesium are mash pH movers (whereas for the case of strongly buffered systems such as beer, a water volume change of magnitude 2 is not hardly a pH mover at all at the nominally pH measurable level of 2 decimal places).
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Re: Effect of mashing with too much water

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:12 pm

In a non-buffered water (sans for some acid added whereby to bring it to pH 5.50) of volume 1, the amount of H+ acid ions is:

10^-5.50 = 0.000003162 moles/L of H+ ion concentration.
(whereas -Log(0.000003162) = 5.50 pH

If we double the water volume to volume 2, we simultaneously halve the H+ ion concentration.
0.000003162 ÷ 2 = 0.000001581 moles/L of H+ concentration at volume 2

So now our pH becomes:
-Log(0.000001581) = 5.801

An increase of 0.3 pH points via doubling the volume of water.

But a typical grist or Wort buffering capacity of ~35 mEq/Kg_pH would reduce this 0.3 pH point change to (on first approximation) 0.3/35 = 0.009 pH points for the case of a 1 Kg. grist (and less for a more weighty and thus more buffering grist).

Therefore we should expect that doubling the volume of the mash water (for specifically and exclusively the case of mashing in good quality distilled or DI water) would (on first loose ballpark educated guess approximation) move a mash pH of 5.50 to 5.509, or to 5.51 when rounded to 2 decimal places. Hardly, if at all 'reliably' measurable as a pH difference with a budget pH meter that "purports" (but in the real world can not actually, as in repeatedly and/or reliably deliver) accuracy to 0.01 pH points.

Thus my statement in the post above that volume changes of magnitude 2 are not pH movers for the case of the water itself (which inherently means mineral free water).
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Re: Effect of mashing with too much water

Post by brewbrew » Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:11 pm

I have some experience of this by way of a pump failure on a HERMS that gave me the need to add about twice the target mash liquor and cut the mash time wise from the target 1hr to about 20 mins. Brew was a OG 1054 pilsner

To cut a long story short, my mash tun domed filter was not seated properly and the first wave of grain blocked the pump. So I stopped and temp was too high - in a rush I added my standby cold water to get down to 65 degC..... then realised I had 90% of the malt to add and no way of heating. Anyhow, I pushed on; added the rest of the grain, thinking that I'd top up manually from HLT. Temp got to 65 deg C at the top but then when fully tuned over and at the point of having added all the intended sparge water, I ended up with a temp of 59 deg C at about 15 mins in, then at 20 mins in, I was down at 58 deg C. I almost ditched the lot - but a quick taste (am I the only one that uses a wort taste test?), revealed that it was as good as I could have wished for and the hydrometer came out at 1054.

10 weeks later, I have one of the nicest pilsners I have ever done. I'm even wondering why I need the HERMS but I suspect that the stars aligned temp, dilution and time wise with a big dose of luck.

It does go to show that over volume mash liquor and crude temp control can work.

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Re: Effect of mashing with too much water

Post by PeeBee » Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:55 pm

guypettigrew wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:42 pm
Bit lost here! Surely alkalinity is measured in parts per million. Using twice as much water won't change this. I clearly need educating!
To which "Silver_Is_Money" replies …

That should teach you not to question "Silver_Is_Money"!

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Re: Effect of mashing with too much water

Post by f00b4r » Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:05 pm

It was pretty clearly mentioned by Silver Is Money that he was referring to mineral free water.
With one pot systems and tap water and acids, I and I know others, tend to target a reduced alkalinity relative to 3 vessel brewers to yield a similar mash pH. I’m not sure of the mechanics of why it is so but was guided in this a long time ago by people like Aleman and Eric.

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Re: Effect of mashing with too much water

Post by Eric » Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:16 pm

f00b4r wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:05 pm
It was pretty clearly mentioned by Silver Is Money that he was referring to mineral free water.
With one pot systems and tap water and acids, I and I know others, tend to target a reduced alkalinity relative to 3 vessel brewers to yield a similar mash pH. I’m not sure of the mechanics of why it is so but was guided in this a long time ago by people like Aleman and Eric.
Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:35 pm
Chemical reactions occur on an 'equivalent' weights basis. Twice the volume of water with (for example) 100 ppm Alkalinity means twice the weight of extant Alkalinity, despite still being 100 ppm.

Example for 100 ppm (mg/L) Alkalinity (as CaCO3) and 15 vs. 30 Liters of water:
We know that increasing alkalinity in mash liquor will raise mash pH and vice versa. The mash thickness for my 3V system is ~2.5 litres per Kg of grist and by treating my supply water with HCl, H2SO4, CRS or combination of those, then setting calcium level will achieve an acceptable mash pH. Now my single pot system requires about 50% more liquor, but I suspect with similar liquor would produce similar pH reading at mash-in. However, recirculating would replace partly or fully neutralised liquid by liquor at the initial alkalinity level to produce higher pH.

To get first runnings from the single pot at equivalent pH to those from the 3V, alkalinity level must to be lower, but for those who sparge, that isn't the end of the story. As sparge liquor replaces and dilutes wort in the mash, pH will rise if sparge liquor is of the same composition as that used for the mash. For a 3V brew I usually initially add some calcium salts on top the mash shortly after beginning the fly sparge. Later during the sparge, alkalinity of liquor in the HLT should be further lowered from that used for the mash to avoid pH rising too high and reduced extraction of the available sugars. As a single pot vessel usually starts with a higher liquor level, less sparging is required and accordingly is less critical, suggesting total alkalinity might be the same for both systems, just the distribution that will be different.

That however is only to do with pH and avoidance of extracting undesirable products from the mash, as if all that happens in the mash is simplistic. it isn't and the proportion of fermentable sugars released from the mash is also dependent upon the the thickness of the mash, but I don't care to open that can of worms.
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Re: Effect of mashing with too much water

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Thu Sep 02, 2021 4:28 pm

I used to sparge, but I switched to no-sparge, and other than a yield hit to OG (requiring a bit more base malt whereby to compensate) I don't really notice a difference in the finished beers.

But then I've heard it said that the least likely comment you will ever get from friends in regard to the quality/flavor of your homebrewed beer is:
This beer tastes like it had low mash efficiency!
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Re: Effect of mashing with too much water

Post by f00b4r » Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:04 pm

Especially when it is free , unless you friends happen to be really into home brewing too or are beer judges.

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Re: Effect of mashing with too much water

Post by MashBag » Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:57 am

Is the person drinking most of the your beer happy 😊

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Re: Effect of mashing with too much water

Post by Bibinimis » Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:55 am

The brew I did with an over diluted mash and that concerned me is now being consumed though rather slowly as it is far from my best. It has a slight aftertaste that has a trace of musty bitterness to it. I am convinced that I did nothing wrong apart from the unbalanced mash and cannot be sure that was the cause of the problem but what I am sure of is that I will not do it again!

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Re: Effect of mashing with too much water

Post by MashBag » Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:53 am

Perhaps is depends on the kit you are using.
3v perhaps it is more important?
Whereas in a GF or BM it does not matter?

I have a BM, & have used various volumes and TBH can't say I have noticed a difference.

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Re: Effect of mashing with too much water

Post by Eric » Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:22 am

MashBag wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:53 am
Perhaps is depends on the kit you are using.
3v perhaps it is more important?
Whereas in a GF or BM it does not matter?

I have a BM, & have used various volumes and TBH can't say I have noticed a difference.
Water treatment is equally important whatever equipment is used to brew and regardless of the brewer's opinion for or knowledge of water treatment.
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