Fermentation hasn't started

[guypettigrew]

Yesterday I made a 1.049 AG brew into which I tipped a vial of White Labs 023.

The yeast was well within the "best before" date, which was 31st december 2012.

The wort was at 26C when I pitched, it's now down to about 21C.

As of now, 24 hours after pitching, there's no sign of any fermentation. A new one on me. The White Labs vials are normally well away after 15-18 hours, let alone 24. The last one I used was 001 a couple of weeks ago. No problems with the fermentation getting started.

What should I do, please? I have a sachet of Safale S-04 available. Should I pitch it in, or give the White Labs another 12 or so hours?

The brew is in a plastic FV with the lid closed and an airlock on, although I'm sure there will only be a layer of air on top of the brew as no CO2 has been produced yet.

Final bit of info; this is AG #40 for me. As far as I'm aware eveything was done the same as in all the other batches.

Thanks.

Guy

[OldSpeckledBadger]

No idea why your yeast has failed but if were me I'd get that S04 in there quick.

[darkonnis]

Well, it's up to you.
Do you honestly think the yeast isn't playing?
If that is honestly what you think, pitch the SO-4 now.
If you think it might have some go in it, leave it and see.

Honestly, we can't see what you can, so you'll just have to go with your gut.
Cooky

[Eric]

Did you do your best to get some oxygen into the wort? My last two different White Labs took longer than this. Keep it covered and look for white specks on the surface tomorrow morning. Hopefully you'll be top cropping to refill that vial before long.

[alix101]

Check the gravity to see if fermentation has started...what temperature is it in? try rousing it first with a sterile spoon.
I'll take it you don't make starters? This would of helped, you don't know how your yeast had been stored since it was made! Some yeast nutrient would also help..

[darkonnis]

Check the gravity to see if fermentation has started...what temperature is it in? try rousing it first with a sterile spoon.
I'll take it you don't make starters? This would of helped, you don't know how your yeast had been stored since it was made! Some yeast nutrient would also help..

You don't really need to make a starter for a standard batch of 23L, Those vials are designed "ready to pitch". Admittedly, making a starter lets you see the yeast fire up prior to use and I agree you should where you can.
I also feel that yeast nutrient is a bit "late" if you don't get it in the boil or right at the start of fermentation. By the time you add it after a day, the yeast has done the majority of its breeding. You have lots of weak yeast breeding more weak yeast. Yeast vit isn't a one stop fix, atleast if what I read is true.

[dogchillibilly]

http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp023.html

Suggests it normally goes off like a rocket.
Pitch the s04.

Re starter ... Whilst technically you might not need one based on the cell count when it leaves the lab... The yeast has come from the states then spend time in our postal service.... Always worth doing one ... Even if its only 500ml to verify viability ( or switch to wyeast smack pack... Does the same).
that's my opinion.... Ultimately though do what works for you.

[alix101]

I couldn't disagree more. Although the vials are intended for pitching straight into a 23l batch there are many variables. Making a starter greatly improved my beer when using liquid yeast.
The gravity of the wort is of paramount importance.A vile of yeast typically has 70\ 150 billion yeast cells this us a huge diffrence on it's own. But then if you consider a beer with a gravity of 1048( according to mr malty) needs pitching rate of 177 billion cells then even if you took the best scenario of 150 you still need a starter.wort is deficient in in nutrients zinc etc and you want, your yeast healthy and viable, so I always put a measure in my starter.
After spending 5/6 quid on a vile you don't want to waste it.... or your brew ..give it the best chance you can.

[guypettigrew]

Panic over!!

Last night at about 11.00pm I went out to see what was happening and was ready to chuck in the S-04. To my great relief there was a thin layer of fine bubbles on the surface of the wort. By about 8 am today there was a thick layer of very healthy looking yeast on top of the brew.

I've never bothered making a starter with White Labs. I normally pitch about 4 or 5pm and, by the following morning it's looking really good. Perhaps this was just a rogue vial. I don't make a starter for 4 reasons; I've never needed to, the possibility of infection is reduced by pitching straight from the vial, I never have anything to make a starter with, I can never get organised enough to make one a couple of days before I brew.

My next brew will be using WL 007. Perhaps I should put a pod of Servomyces yeast nutrient in the boil. I bought some from "The Malt Miller" with my last order, intending to use it when brewing with rinsed yeast. No harm in putting it in with new yeast, though.

Guy

[fisherman]

Calm down Guy,
Buy yourself a pkt of spraymalt and pinch a milk bottle (if you can find one ) and make a starter using just 2 tbs of the malt and boiled water. Keep it warm in your mashtun filled with water at 70of from the tap.
My idea of constant brewing and re pitching lowers the blood pressure and increases the beer.
have a great weekend
Dave

[darkonnis]

I couldn't disagree more. Although the vials are intended for pitching straight into a 23l batch there are many variables. Making a starter greatly improved my beer when using liquid yeast.
The gravity of the wort is of paramount importance.A vile of yeast typically has 70\ 150 billion yeast cells this us a huge diffrence on it's own. But then if you consider a beer with a gravity of 1048( according to mr malty) needs pitching rate of 177 billion cells then even if you took the best scenario of 150 you still need a starter.wort is deficient in in nutrients zinc etc and you want, your yeast healthy and viable, so I always put a measure in my starter.
After spending 5/6 quid on a vile you don't want to waste it.... or your brew ..give it the best chance you can.

Well, I think you could disagree more really , I agreed with you and said a starter is handy but I also think its not necessarily needed. Of course gravity comes into it, but I don't recall the OP mentioning that it was a particularly strong brew and as for yeast vit, you said it yourself, you put it in the starter. Adding it 30 hours into a ferment is too late to make any substantial difference. I have found the majority of fermentations I have had are done in 2 days, from 1.050 to 1.020 usually then the next 10 - 15 points drop off in the following days and then I leave it a good week after that to finish up before checking further and decide when and for how long I'll crash cool/bottle.
If you're going to yeast vit, you need to do it from the get go is what I'm saying.

Glad this turned out btw guy, I too pitch straight from the vial unless I want that vial to do 2 brews in which I split it from the get go and stir plate them back to what I need. My attempts at harvesting and repitching have been... mixed so earlier is easier for me.

[Eric]

Glad it's going Guy. Here too the vial is pitched directly into the FV, which I believe should retain enough viable yeast for a 5 U.S. gallon brew at the best by date.

I don't know much on this subject, but wonder what and how much I should learn. Unless an 80 mile round trip is done to select one off the shelf, the date that will be on the vial is unknown. Also, my brew mightn't be on the planned day and really have no idea what quantity of yeast is pitched into any of my brews, but it seems they always do the job.

How do you tell how much viable yeast there is and should be? What margin of error isn't significant?

[Steveicky]

I used WLP002 for the first time recently, always used S04 previously. With S04 the fermentation starts with about 5 hours but the WLP002 took about 17, which was a bit of a worry. The yeast was well within date but everything seemed to go OK once it had started.

When it finished I collected the yeast cake at from the fermenter and put it in a fridge for about 2 weeks. I then pitched this directly into my next brew and to my shock it was fermenting within 2 hours.

I guess this means that the White Labs vials perform best when they are very fresh or you have a starter prepared.

Steveicky

[alix101]

How do you tell how much viable yeast there is and should be? What margin of error isn't significant?

have a look through the Mr Malty web site.it's thee web page of Jamil Zainasheff author of the yeast book.
http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

[Eric]

I then pitched this directly into my next brew and to my shock it was fermenting within 2 hours.

How much?

How do you tell how much viable yeast there is and should be? What margin of error isn't significant?

have a look through the Mr Malty web site.it's thee web page of Jamil Zainasheff author of the yeast book.
http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Oh thanks Steve! I'll give you a shout the next time I'm ready to pitch.

Wonder what Guy's going to do with the surplus.